bid

[jdonn]

Hi,

 

it is either Pass or 4S, I would go with 4S.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Why 4S? If he hates hearts, he'll bid spades himself.

 

I hope he will understand that I have a weak hand with six hearts...after all, that's what 1NT followed by hearts shows. If he has two small hearts and 15 hcp, I'll happily take my chances in hearts. I don't expect partner to pass 4♥ with a singleton. Maybe I should.

You should expect him to pass with a void!

You are showing a hand with no use for S and only H as a decent contract. 4H is NOT a suggestion.

I have to say I'm somewhat in between on this, I don't think what either of you are saying makes complete sense. If partner can play in spades no matter what you have, he will go back to spades, he would have nothing to gain by passing regardless of your precise interpretation of 4♥. If he can't play in spades opposite any hand, then he will pass 4♥ regardless of his heart holding. It's difficult for me to imagine how this could fail to reach the better suit in the most cases possible. It will play in hearts when both suits are bad, but that's probably better anyway (likely a 6-1 instead of a 6-0).

[dcvetkov]

Which is more likely? That I have the magic holding with one loser in hearts in spite of my weakness, or that I have a 6 card heart suit that wants to play in hearts if partner has a doubleton?

I am very surprised you treat this heart suit as 1 loser hand? it is not even close, Opposite very likely singleton, it is more like 3 loser hand. It may play a litle better then spades, but I think people bidding 4H are overly optimistic hoping to find good support in dummy.

[skjaeran]

With my regular, 3♠ sets trump and demands a cuebid. So I have an easy 4♥. B)

 

Playing more standard methods, I'd pass, though I'm close to raising to 4♠.

[cjames]

Clear 1NT, 3NT now.

[jtfanclub]

I am very surprised you treat this heart suit as 1 loser hand? it is not even close, Opposite very likely singleton, it is more like 3 loser hand. It may play a litle better then spades, but I think people bidding 4H are overly optimistic hoping to find good support in dummy.

I am saying that I don't think it should be necessary for hearts to be a one loser hand to bid here.

 

Also, I rather suspect that partner is far more likely to have a doubleton than a singleton.

[P_Marlowe]

4H is NOT a suggestion.

This is just one of those logic things that escapes me.

 

I've shown a weak hand- too weak to invite in hearts. Partner has not denied two or three hearts.

 

Which is more likely? That I have the magic holding with one loser in hearts in spite of my weakness, or that I have a 6 card heart suit that wants to play in hearts if partner has a doubleton? Why play a system where you miss your 6-3 major suit fit, just so you can have a demand bid for a one-in-a-million shot?

You overlooked the fact, that 1NT was forcing,

i.e. the 1NT bid can still contain a strong spade

raise.

 

If 1NT would be standard 6-9/10, than the cue

bid meaning of 4H is out, but 1NT bidder could

be stronger, ... he may even hold 13-15, if you

happen to play this style.

 

With regards

Marlowe

[jtfanclub]

Oh, well, if you're going to play 4♥ here as a cue-bid, more power to you.

 

I'm saying that having it mean "I want to play 4♥ even if you have a heart void and AKQJT9 of spades" is too rare a happenstance to waste the bid on.

[jillybean]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=saj9543ht5d5caqjt&w=skq72hkq2d9432c62&e=st86h96dak86ck854&s=shaj8743dqjt7c973]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     1♠    Pass  1NT

 Pass  3♠    Pass  3NT

 Pass  4♣    Dbl   4♥

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

 

Here's the complete disaster.

[jtfanclub]

That's an...interesting 3♠ bid. You sure you weren't playing Precision?

[babalu1997]

Here's the complete disaster.

The disaster was, in fact, the 3 spades bid.

 

After the forcing no trump bid, the opener should down grade his hand, as the bid may contain a misfit.

 

He then bids bids 2 clubs and responder passes happily there, or as some 2/1 books advocate, responder bids 2 hearts and you play unhappily there lol.

 

The forcing No trump takes the captaincy. Responder is boss and should be allowed to have his say.

 

Please note your shortness in hearts and diamonds are really only good IF IF there is a fit.

 

The 3 sapdes bid should say this:

 

Look p, i know you are there trying to take control and rain on my parade. But i have news for ya:

 

I have enough spades to play opposite a void, tough teety.

 

If my hand cannot say that, i will bid 2 clubs, if p then says 2 sapdes or 3 sapdes,GIVING ME BACK THE CAPTAINCY, i may invite or bid game.

[jdonn]

1♠ 1NT

2♣ 2♥

P

 

Life is good.

[jillybean]

1♠ 1NT

2♣ 2♥

P

 

Life is good.

2♥ I like that, life is good but sometimes my auctions arent. :D

 

Good to know what I should have done over 3♠ anyway.

[ArtK78]

1♠ 1NT

2♣ 2♥

P

 

Life is good.

If I held the South hand, I would BART 2♦ over 2♣.

 

The hand is certainly worth it.

 

Opener would bid 2♠ (Tx is not good enough for 2♥). Now I have to decide whether to bid 3♥, pass 2♠, or bid 2NT. 2NT is probably right. Opener can bid 3♥ over 2NT or pass.

 

Bidding 2♥ over 2♣ is a highly pessimistic view. You would bid 2♥ on x Kxxxxx Qxx xxx. Or possibly worse.

 

On this hand, pessimism was right. 2♥ is certainly the limit of the hand. But you might be able to squeek out a 9th trick in hearts (4 hearts, 3 clubs, a spade and a diamond ruff).

[jillybean]

BART?

[jdonn]

1♠ 1NT

2♣ 2♥

P

 

Life is good.

If I held the South hand, I would BART 2♦ over 2♣.

 

The hand is certainly worth it.

 

Opener would bid 2♠ (Tx is not good enough for 2♥). Now I have to decide whether to bid 3♥, pass 2♠, or bid 2NT. 2NT is probably right. Opener can bid 3♥ over 2NT or pass.

 

Bidding 2♥ over 2♣ is a highly pessimistic view. You would bid 2♥ on x Kxxxxx Qxx xxx. Or possibly worse.

 

On this hand, pessimism was right. 2♥ is certainly the limit of the hand. But you might be able to squeek out a 9th trick in hearts (4 hearts, 3 clubs, a spade and a diamond ruff).

I don't think you understand BART, it has to do with shape not strength. As for your objection, I sometimes open weak two bids on 5 counts and sometimes on 8 counts, so far I am pleased with the results. There are many bids remaining below game is partner wants to know which I have.

[mikeh]

Late to the thread (again B) )

 

My current partnership uses the gadget Ken suggested, 3♦ showing hearts... for us it is invitational or a strong jumpshift.. but this is not a hand for the gadget.

 

As for the bidding: 1N obvious, 3♠ lunatic, and pass of 3♠ clear altho unpleasant.

 

While a magic hand may make 4♠ and many hands will make 4♥, on some of the ones on which neither makes, we will get doubled and it may be bloody. This is quite different from situations in which our decision is to bid game or pass, after finding a playable denomination. Yes, pass may miss game, but so what?

 

As for BART, if my partner bid 2♣ (aas he should) I would bid 2♦. Partner HAS to bid 2♥ with his hand... any other call denies 2=3 hearts. Now, opposite at least 2 card support, but with only 8 hcp and a complete misfit... zero spades and our diamond strength is too slow to be much help if he has, for example, 5=3=2=3 or 5=2=2=4... pass is probably best but I might choose 3♥.. especially if playing the above 3♦ gadget... unfortunately that partnership doesn't play BART (altho I'm working on him B) )

[ArtK78]

As for BART, if my partner bid 2♣ (aas he should) I would bid 2♦. Partner HAS to bid 2♥ with his hand... any other call denies 2=3 hearts. Now, opposite at least 2 card support, but with only 8 hcp and a complete misfit... zero spades and our diamond strength is too slow to be much help if he has, for example, 5=3=2=3 or 5=2=2=4... pass is probably best but I might choose 3♥.. especially if playing the above 3♦ gadget... unfortunately that partnership doesn't play BART (altho I'm working on him B) )

In the version of BART that I play, the minimum for a 2♥ bid by opener is Hx or any 3 card holding. I don't know if Tx qualifies.

 

There is something to be said for bidding 2♥ on any two-card holding, but that certainly changes the known degree of fit.

[mike777]

In the version of Bart I was taught 2h is 6h and less than invitational values.

This responder hand is far less than invitational values for me.

 

btw I was taught that, yes, over 2d, partner must rebid 2h with 2or 3 hearts(except enough to jump to 3h).

[ArtK78]

In the version of Bart I was taught 2h is 6h and less than invitational values.

This responder hand is far less than invitational values for me.

 

btw I was taught that, yes, over 2d, partner must rebid 2h with 2or 3 hearts(except enough to jump to 3h).

Considering that you did not bid 2♥ over 1♠ (which I do not play as game forcing) this hand is almost a maximum for BART.

 

But if you play 2/1 game forcing, I can see why you might be reluctant to BART these cards.

[kenrexford]

I still think this is a hand between 3♦/♥ (invitational) and 1NT...2♥(Bart).

[the hog]

Quote Jdonn

"If partner can play in spades no matter what you have, he will go back to spades, he would have nothing to gain by passing regardless of your precise interpretation of 4♥. If he can't play in spades opposite any hand, then he will pass 4♥ regardless of his heart holding. It's difficult for me to imagine how this could fail to reach the better suit in the most cases possible. "

 

AKJxxxx

void

Axx

KJx

 

void

KQJTxxx

xxx

xxx

 

Would you rather be in 4H or 4S? Rhetorical question....

[jdonn]

Quote Jdonn

"If partner can play in spades no matter what you have, he will go back to spades, he would have nothing to gain by passing regardless of your precise interpretation of 4♥. If he can't play in spades opposite any hand, then he will pass 4♥ regardless of his heart holding. It's difficult for me to imagine how this could fail to reach the better suit in the most cases possible. "

 

AKJxxxx

void

Axx

KJx

 

void

KQJTxxx

xxx

xxx

 

Would you rather be in 4H or 4S? Rhetorical question....

Do you cater your entire system to when a weak hand holds KQJTxxx at the expense of every time it holds a weaker suit? Also rhetorical...

 

I wish I could find a link that clearly explains the difference between "difficult" and "impossible" as well as between "the most cases possible" and "all cases". Any computer savvy volunteers out there?

[Codo]

Josh, what you wrote was pure polemic.

Nice polemic, but still.

 

You normally have more ways into the strong hand then into the weak hand, so the risk, that the long suit in the weak hand will give you no/few tricks is much higher then the risk to lose the long suit in the strong hand.

 

So it must be in most hands much better to play in the long suit in the weak hand.

And you lack the place to have a way to separate between hands which are in the POC camp from the ones where 4 Heart is a statement.

 

I agree with Ron, that 4 Heart is no question, it is a command, because I guess that the wins in 4 Heart compared to 3 Spade .-1 in Rons example hand are much higher then the lost of the hands where we chose the superior game with a 4 Heart POC bid.

[benlessard]

Easy 3Nt for me. 3S is almost forcing (we are in imps) and my hand is non minimum, partner suit is more likely to be 1 loser or no loser then 2 loser.

 

 

3S with AJ9xxx is atrocious.

[han]

Pretty much agree with everything Josh said in this thread. Sigh. ;)