After a penalty pass

[TimG]

North East South West
1[he] [space] [space] 1[sp] [space] [space]P [space] [space]P
DBL [space] [space]P [space] [space] P [space] [space]2[cl]
P [space] [space] [space]P [space] [space] 2[he] [space] P
3[di]

Playing expert standard (even if I'm not qualified), what would you expect the North-South hands to look like at this point in the auction? And, is 3♦ forcing?

 

Edit: IMPs, both Vul.

[jtfanclub]

Vulnerability is going to be very important here, IMHO. I will have a very different hand as responder white vs. red than I will at equal.

[Apollo81]

I would call normal 1552/1642 opposite 5(332). Given that, I think 3♦ should be NF with some game interest, but I would never pass it at the table.

[jdonn]

I'm not sure I understand this. How could he not bid 2♦ or 3♦ over 2♣ when his pass isn't forcing, but do it now that partner has gone back to his major? To me this is DNE.

[Apollo81]

With a 1552 min I would pass hoping partner can hit 2♣. I don't think I'd bid over 2♥ though...

[helene_t]

I'm not sure I understand this. How could he not bid 2♦ or 3♦ over 2♣ when his pass isn't forcing, but do it now that partner has gone back to his major? To me this is DNE.

Are you sure opener's pass is not forcing? When this came up in the "Ladderpuzzel" (Dutch MSC) everyone thought it was forcing.

[mikeh]

I'm not sure I understand this. How could he not bid 2♦ or 3♦ over 2♣ when his pass isn't forcing, but do it now that partner has gone back to his major? To me this is DNE.

I find myself in the unusual position of disagreeing with Josh.

 

I think that this is an entirely plausible, altho unlikely, auction.

 

Opener has a chunky hand with 1543 or 0643 shape, not good enough to insist on playing the hand opposite a complete misfit, and definitely interested in hearing a double of 2♣.

 

It is precisely because the pass of 2♣ is nf that the auction makes sense.

 

Responder's penalty pass of 1♠ is wide-range. I once caught partner with QJ109xxx in spades and a side yarb. More commonly, responder has good, long spades, some side defence and short(ish) hearts. Give responder AQ108x x KJxx Qxx and he should be hammering 2♣.... rather than chasing 3N or 5♦ (obviously vulnerability matters, I am assuming equal). Give him KQ109xx xx xx xxx and he should be passing (or bidding 2♠ to play).

 

But when he bids 2♥... this is NOT a preference. It has to be a real raise, with 3 hearts.. in turn this suggests a reasonable holding so now game may be playable, especially if, as is likely, responder has short clubs. Hence the game try.

[hrothgar]

For what its worth, I assumed that the pass over 2♣ was forcing...

[mikeh]

I'm not sure I understand this. How could he not bid 2♦ or 3♦ over 2♣ when his pass isn't forcing, but do it now that partner has gone back to his major? To me this is DNE.

Are you sure opener's pass is not forcing? When this came up in the "Ladderpuzzel" (Dutch MSC) everyone thought it was forcing.

My own view of the pass of 2♣ is that opener expects responder to take action on 90% or more of hands consistent with the auction to date, but that it is not forcing.

 

After all, we would all, I suspect, reopen with a double, after the 1♠ overcall came around to us, with x KQxxx AJxx Qxx. Do we have to force partner to bid with QJ1087x x Qxx xxx?

[Finch]

I do not believe pass of 2C was forcing, for exactly the reasons mikeh states.

 

A few months ago there was a (ruling-related) hand discussed on bridgetalk, where my husband and I were surprised to find ourselves in a minority by thinking that

 

1D P P x

P P 1H P

 

was non-forcing

 

Simply because pass of 2C was non-forcing, and responder's 2H bid was non-forcing, I don't think that 3D can suddenly become forcing, so I would categorise it as "non-forcing game try"

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 pass of 2C is forcing, if we have converted

#2 2H is the weaskest action South can take

#3 3D is inv. a game try, i.e. forcing, it has to be

based on a 6 carder, ... the penalty should

virtually deny primary support

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Guest Jlall]

How can this pass be forcing? Shocked that's even debatable, nobody has shown anything extra at this point in the auction.

 

2H still doesn't show much, and opener made a NF pass so I guess I am with jdonn. Can someone who thinks this exists AND that openers pass is NF please give me an example hand that would bid this way?

[Guest Jlall]

But when he bids 2♥... this is NOT a preference. It has to be a real raise, with 3 hearts.. in turn this suggests a reasonable holding so now game may be playable, especially if, as is likely, responder has short clubs. Hence the game try.

I agree that it shows 3 card heart support but why does this imply a good hand? I would bid this way with KQJ9x Jxx xxx xx or something.

[whereagles]

I think that:

 

2♥ = not invitational. Pd could bid 2NT/3♥ if invitational.

3♦ = nat, forcing 1 round. Probable 6 hearts in opener.