Opening 5-3-3-2 hands in Acol

[el mister]

I've had some bad results recently opening 5-3-3-2 hands, 12-14pts. In the Acol system I'm playing (learning), weak NT = 12-14 but 5M-3-3-2, 12-14 gets opened 1M. Can I check that this is standard?

 

It seems to present a rebid problem, where you're really hoping that partner gives you some support back, otherwise you don't have many options. Say you hold ♠AKXXX♥JXX♦QXX♣KX - would you open this 1♠ rather than 1NT? Do you assess the suit quality, or just open whatever 5CM if you're 13hcp balanced? WHat about if partner is a passed hand?

 

I guess what I am not clear on is why you don't use the 1NT opener, since it is a brilliantly descriptive bid. Partner can then use a variety of bids to show a strong hand, find a fit, or even rescue the contract if they've got absolutely nothing. I'm not getting why 1M is superior when there is no obvious second suit to re-bid.

 

Thanks for any advice :rolleyes:

[whereagles]

I think it's standard to open 5332s 12-14 with 1M. You can, however, put those hands into the 1NT opener without much trouble. There are a lot of ways to dig out the 53 fits afterwards.

[hotShot]

Opening 5M332 hands 1M is standard.

I fail to see where your problem is, your opening bid promises 4 cards in that suit, so with weak hands (12-14) you can rebid 2M showing your 5th card.

 

Note that your partner will respond 1NT with weak 6-9(10) hands that you should pass.

 

If your partner responds 2m he is stronger and will find a bid over your 2M rebid.

 

If you open 1♥ and your partner responds 1♠, you can opt to rebid 1NT.

[el mister]

 

If you open 1♥ and your partner responds 1♠, you can opt to rebid 1NT.

Thanks for the replies.

 

Interested in this last point hotShot. I've been treating the 1NT rebid showing 15-16pts as set in stone - it makes sense to bend it a little in this case?

[karlson]

The biggest reason that you open them 1M is that on many hands when partner is too weak to bid over 1N, 2M will be a much better contract (most hands with 3-card support).

 

It' pretty standard, as far as I know, that 1♥-1♠-1NT shows 12-16, just like in a strong NT system.

[brianshark]

I'm no weak NT expert, but I've heard that one of the biggest advantages of playing a weak NT is the increased frequency of opening 1NT, and opening most 5M332 hands 1NT works well.

[hotShot]

I've been treating the 1NT rebid showing 15-16pts as set in stone - it makes sense to bend it a little in this case?

Your partner will bid 3/2 NT if hes strong enough and that might get you in trouble. So you should be careful.

 

But if you hold 14 HCP and your ♠ suit is worth 4-5 tricks and you stop the minors, you can expect partner to stop ♥. This should be enough to make 7-8 tricks in NT, if opps can't pull to many tricks before you can.

[helene_t]

If you open 1♥ and p bids 1♠, you could rebid 2m on a 3-card or you could raise spades on a 3-card, but neither is particularly attractive, especially raising, since you may fail to find the 5-3 hearts fit if you first find the 3-4 spades fit. Also if you play Cascade's method:

1M-2m

2M-2NT*

as forcing, I think you may have a problem with your 3rd bid if you start by bidding your major-suit 5-card twice.

 

Those issues nonwithstanding you can do whatever you feel most comfortable with. FWIW I almost always open 1NT. Not in 3rd seat but then again I prefer to play a 14-16 1NT in 3rd seat, and doing that I would open 1NT if in range.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

the way I learned it, you should look at the quality of the suit.

If you open 1M, you have to rebid 2M.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Cascade]

If you open 1♥ and p bids 1♠, you could rebid 2m on a 3-card or you could raise spades on a 3-card, but neither is particularly attractive, especially raising, since you may fail to find the 5-3 hearts fit if you first find the 3-4 spades fit. Also if you play Cascade's method:

1M-2m

2M-2NT*

as forcing, I think you may have a problem with your 3rd bid if you start by bidding your major-suit 5-card twice.

 

Those issues nonwithstanding you can do whatever you feel most comfortable with. FWIW I almost always open 1NT. Not in 3rd seat but then again I prefer to play a 14-16 1NT in 3rd seat, and doing that I would open 1NT if in range.

This is a good point and we solve this by opening all 5M332 hands within range 1NT (and rebidding NTs with all similar hands outside the no trump range).

 

My feeling is that this choice is mostly about swings and round-abouts. You win some by having these hands in your 1NT - you open 1NT more frequently; you improve the definition of your 1M openings and rebids; you give less information to the opponents when you open 1NT - but you also lose some - missing 5=3 major fits; compromising on system to find the 5=3 major fits means you miss other options; partner has less information when on lead after the opponents interfere about your best suit.

 

My method for finding the 5=3 fit is to utilize a 3♦ rebid by responder after Stayman to ask about a five-card major (or three-card major since we Stayman with 5-3 either way in the majors with game force values). Obviously this method only works when we have game force values hence we will miss some 5=3 fits with invitational values or no game interest.

 

1NT 2♣

2♦ 3♦ asks where is your three card major

 

1NT 2♣

2♥ 3♦ asks for five hearts or three (or four) spades

 

1NT 2♣

2♠ 3♦ asks for five spades or three hearts

[NickRW]

Interested in this last point hotShot. I've been treating the 1NT rebid showing 15-16pts as set in stone - it makes sense to bend it a little in this case?

It varies. I think they mainly teach that the 1N rebid shows 15-16 these days - indeed that is exactly what is on the "No Fear Bridge Crib Sheet" that some teachers recommend and which is freely downloadable.

 

Having said that some employ a more wide ranging 1N rebid - but they usually only do this if they also employ the Crowhurst convention (similar to, but not quite the same as "checkback" I think in the US - someone correct me if I'm wrong).

 

You can also elect to include these 5M332 types in your 1N opening, but you'll probably then want to employ some variety of 5 card stayman in your responses.

 

They're all workable options IMO. Some have opinions that one is better than the other - but I haven't yet seen a really convincing argument.

 

Nick

[the hog]

Opening 12-14 5332 hands with one of a Major used to be standard when some players panicked abot having a 5 card major in a NT opening. Most enlightened players now include these shapes in the NT opening.

This was accepted by modern Acol players in Oz at least 20 years ago. Don't worry, it makes bidding FAR easier. And you don't have to bid a non existent 3 card suit which is totally misdescrining your hand, - showing an unbalanced 5-4 when you have nothing like that.

[andy_h]

It' pretty standard, as far as I know, that 1♥-1♠-1NT shows 12-16, just like in a strong NT system.

Not a big Acol fan myself, but this I haven't heard of? 12-16 seems like a pretty big range. When I did play Acol once upon a time, a 1NT rebid shows the strong NT. I hated auctions though that started 1M-2x-2NT which was like a huge 15-19(20) range.

[EricK]

There is no "standard" in Acol - fashions coma and go like dust in the wind. In the old days everybody used to open these hands 1M. Nowadays more and more people are opening them 1NT.

 

A useful principle to bear in mind is that if a hand is only worth one bid make the most descriptive bid.

[david_c]

There is no "standard" in Acol - fashions come and go like dust in the wind. In the old days everybody used to open these hands 1M. Nowadays more and more people are opening them 1NT.

Right. Though I believe it is still true that people learning to play bridge will be taught to open the major.

 

Personally I nearly always open 1♠ with 5 spades. With hearts I open 1♥ if I am prepared to raise a 1♠ response to 2♠; otherwise I open 1NT. (So always 1NT with 2533.)

 

Of the players who always open the major, I believe that most of them rebid 2♥ after 1♥-1♠. I know this looks bad, but that's Acol for you. 1NT shows a strong NT hand.

[helene_t]

Personally I nearly always open 1♠ with 5 spades. With hearts I open 1♥ if I am prepared to raise a 1♠ response to 2♠; otherwise I open 1NT. (So always 1NT with 2533.)

 

Of the players who always open the major, I believe that most of them rebid 2♥ after 1♥-1♠. I know this looks bad, but that's Acol for you. 1NT shows a strong NT hand.

But raising responder's suit suggests a better hand if you play Acol than if you play SA since it will typically be based on either a 15-16 balanced hand or a singleton somewhere. Besides it should not be necessary to raise spades on three after having opened 1♥ since a 35(41) can just bid the minor. Responder will expect 4-card support and either shortness in a minor or extra HCPs. So raising on 3 with a balanced minimum wouldn't be my choice.

 

As for

1♥-1♠

2♥

on a 5-card, yes I have seen that as well. I don't know why they don't bid a minor 3-card instead. Maybe a rudiment from the old days when people would open 1M with 4M5m so responder would not take a false preference with 2M3m.

[hotShot]

Since this is the B/I section, we should discus the textbook treatments.

 

Acol is a 4-card system, meaning you should open 4+ card majors (4cM) as 1M. Suggesting to move 5M332 into 1NT, is in fact suggesting not to play Acol.

You create a system with strong 1-level bids (because all weak balanced and semibalanced hands are opened 1NT). Even if that were a superior system, it's not Acol.

 

The textbook treatment is to open 1M and to rebid 2M if weak (12-14) and 5332.

We could point that Swiss Acol requires 1♠ to have 5 cards to avoid that problem in ♠.

[helene_t]

The EBU Standard English Acol System File http://www.u3acostadelsol.org/downloads/Br...lSystemFile.pdf

says you should open 1NT open only with a bad 5-card major. Henderson's book says the same (his style is fairly far away from English standard, though, but may be close to Scottish standard).

[the hog]

sorry double post

[the hog]

Since this is the B/I section, we should discus the textbook treatments.

 

Acol is a 4-card system, meaning you should open 4+ card majors (4cM) as 1M. Suggesting to move 5M332 into 1NT, is in fact suggesting not to play Acol.

You create a system with strong 1-level bids (because all weak balanced and semibalanced hands are opened 1NT). Even if that were a superior system, it's not Acol.

 

The textbook treatment is to open 1M and to rebid 2M if weak (12-14) and 5332.

We could point that Swiss Acol requires 1♠ to have 5 cards to avoid that problem in ♠.

Wrong! Reese and Schapiro frequently opened 1NT with this shape. Just looked up some old hands - the Sharples twins did also, it seems.

[helene_t]

Hey Ron, I think HotShot referred to methods recommended in beginner's textbooks, not what strong, established partnerships play.

 

I have read only two textbooks that discuss this issue in an Acol context so I don't know if there is any consensus among textbook authors and teachers. Michelle Brunner who gave a workshop on constructive Acol bidding last year at the Coventry workshop recommended to always open 1NT with balanced hands in range (and always rebid notrump with other range unless you have 4-card support for responder's suit).

 

Anyway, it occurs to me that teachers and textbook authors tend to recommend some quite difficult treatments to beginners while they play easier methods themselves. Describing balanced hands as, well, balanced, is one example of an easy-to-manage treatment that for some reason is often not taught to beginners.

[hotShot]

Wrong! Reese and Schapiro frequently opened 1NT with this shape. Just looked up some old hands - the Sharples twins did also, it seems.

Remember that thread "What people call Acol"?

[Finch]

There are two different points being discussing here.

 

1. What do you open with a 5M332 12-14 hand?

2. If you open 1M, what do you rebid?

 

1. Has been discussed here and elsewhere at great length. The arguments are really little different in a weak NT than a strong NT (OK, there are some very tiny differences). There are pros and cons. However it's worth observing that there are good players around (not just 'unenlightened' ones) who prefer not to have a 5-card major in their 1NT opening or at the very least prefer to look at their hand before deciding whether to open 1NT or not.

 

Don't buy into the BBO forum view, which seems to be that 1NT on any hand vaguely in range and even more vaguely balanced is always the right choice. That approach works best only when playing with a pick-up partner whose declarer play you don't trust.

 

2. The rebid question is a separate discussion. There is one easy and one harder answer:

i) If you open 1S and partner bids 1NT (Acol-style) you pass. If partner makes a 2/1 you rebid 2S, showing no more than five spades - don't forget the original opening only showed four spades.

 

ii) If you open 1H and partner bids 1NT or 2m the same applies. The only question is what you rebid after 1H - 1S - ? There are three common treatments:

 

t1: rebid 2H - this is the very old-fashioned Acol bid which you will still see all over the place in club bridge, but the best players don't do this

t2: invent a 3-card minor or raise 1S to 2S with 3-card support and a low doubleton

t3: rebid 1NT, making this wide range (12-16 or even 12-17)

 

I prefer t3, and I find this works OK. Most of the time responder has a marginal move over this he has either five spades or a doubleton heart and you can play the 5-2 major suit fit instead of 1NT {after all, playing (semi)forcing NT you are just as happy in 2M as you would have been in 1NT}.

 

However if you really hate all of these options, play that 1NT may have five hearts but won't have five spades. Opening 1NT with a 5-card heart suit is significantly more useful as a pre-emptive weapen, keeping them out of spades, than with a 5-card spade suit.

[the hog]

Hey Ron, I think HotShot referred to methods recommended in beginner's textbooks, not what strong, established partnerships play.

 

I have read only two textbooks that discuss this issue in an Acol context so I don't know if there is any consensus among textbook authors and teachers. Michelle Brunner who gave a workshop on constructive Acol bidding last year at the Coventry workshop recommended to always open 1NT with balanced hands in range (and always rebid notrump with other range unless you have 4-card support for responder's suit).

 

Anyway, it occurs to me that teachers and textbook authors tend to recommend some quite difficult treatments to beginners while they play easier methods themselves. Describing balanced hands as, well, balanced, is one example of an easy-to-manage treatment that for some reason is often not taught to beginners.

Yes probably Helene. But re Hotshot's next post - I suspect that Reese and the Sharples would have regarded their system as Acol :-). Reese wrote the damn book on the system.

[hotShot]

But re Hotshot's next post - I suspect that Reese and the Sharples would have regarded their system as Acol :-). Reese wrote the damn book on the system.

Should we rename or redefine Cappelletti since Cappelletti is now playing something different?

 

I thought that Maurice Harrison-Gray, Jack Marx and S. J. Simon created it, but there is no enforceable standard for Acol.

 

E. Crowhurst published "Precision Bidding in ACOL" in 1974 and "ACOL in Competition" 1980.