5 card Major and 6 card minor hand

[KamalK]

[hv=d=e&v=a&n=saq8hat843djt54ct&s=sjt632h95dcakq975]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     Pass  1♠

 Pass  2♥    Pass  3♣

 Pass  3♦    Pass  3♠

 Pass  4♠    Pass  Pass

 Pass  

 

Hi

 

I was sitting South and was dealt this hand with 5 card M and 6 card minor.

 

We made the contract +1 but was later 'advised' to open 1♣ and not 1♠. I always open 5 cards Major first. Is that correct?

 

Also, was bidding correct? Especially 3♠? Should it have been 4♣ instead? Is either 3♠ or 4♣ forcing?

 

Suggestions please?

 

(We play SAYC)

 

Thanks and regards

 

Kamal

[helene_t]

1♠ with this hand is not good. Some prefer to open the major when 5-5 but even in that style you should make an exception for this hand. The hand is very easy to bid if you start with 1♣ since over partner's 1♦ or 1♥ you can just bid 1♠. (if one of your suits was a red suit it could be less obvious to open the longer suit, for example if you had diamonds and p responds 2♣ you would not be able to show your major without reversing). Also the quality of the club suit is a case for opening 1♣.

 

2♥ is fine.

 

3♣ shows extra values (in SAYC is shows something like 16-20 points). You must rebid 2♠. This does not suggest six spades, it just shows weakness and it is forcing so you don't have to worry that p might leave you in a silly 2♠ contract.

 

3♦ is not good. Partner must show his excellent spade support with 3♠ or 4♠. Maybe he has slam interest and was afraid that 3♠ was not forcing, but it is, since 3♣ is a game force.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 open with your longest suit, there are exception, but

dont bother until you have a firm understanding, why

you open with your longest suit

#2 3S is the default rebid, i.e. it does not tell your partner

anything, 4C would tell your partner that you hold 5-5,

3S could either 6-4 or 5-4

#3 3D was game forcing, i.e. 3S and 4C are forcing, because of 3D,

some play that you can check out in 4m after a game force

was created and you determined that you cant play 3NT, but

again, until you have a firm understanding that 3D did set

the game force dont bother with the exception

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[andy_h]

I would open 1C then bid spades twice. Having these two suits also make it easier because partner will most likely respond 1red and we will be able to bid spades comfortably. This will then describe my hand shape pretty well. On the contrary, if I had 5-5 in the blacks I would almost always open it 1S.

[jtfanclub]

3♦ is not good. Partner must show his excellent spade support with 3♠ or 4♠. Maybe he has slam interest and was afraid that 3♠ was not forcing, but it is, since 3♣ is a game force.

Maybe if you play advanced cues....

 

I don't see what's wrong with 3♦, and then 4♠ next. It's likely that the singleton club is very important- whether in a good way or a bad way I don't know yet. If partner bids 3♥ or 3NT over 3♦, he'll have a good idea of what I have when I say 4♠.

 

Admittedly, I won't always get to show my hand completely, but I think 3♦ is more likely to allow me to describe my hand than 3♠ is.

[KamalK]

#3 3D was game forcing, i.e. 3S and 4C are forcing, because of 3D,

    some play that you can check out in 4m after a game force

    was created and you determined that you cant play 3NT, but

    again, until you have a firm understanding that 3D did set

    the game force dont bother with the exception

 

Hi Marlowe, thanks but I didnt quite understand this. Can you explain again pls?

 

Thanks and regards

 

Kamal

[jtfanclub]

Hi Marlowe, thanks but I didnt quite understand this. Can you explain again pls?

4th suit is game forcing. with very few exceptions . This is a good case where having it be game forcing allows you to bid 4♣, and therefore find the right game. While there are exceptions, Marlowe wouldn't recommend worrying about them (except of course 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠).

 

I'm not Marlowe, of course, but I'm pretty sure that's what he was saying. :lol:

[mikeh]

There are times when one should choose to open a 5 card suit rather than a 6 card suit, but they are relatively rare and NEVER involve spades and clubs.

 

Why?

 

Because you can almost NEVER have a rebid problem opening 1♣ (ignoring violent preemption by the opps, which can cause problems no matter what you open).

 

You can always bid 1♣ and then bid and rebid spades, showing, surprise.... 5 spades and longer clubs... isn't it nice to be able to describe your hand so well?

 

Whereas if you open 1♠, no matter how many times you bid clubs, you can never announce longer clubs than spades.

 

There is another, huge, problem with opening 1♠.

 

Look at what happened. Partner bid 2♥ and you bid......??

 

In SAYC, 3♣ shows the values to force to game... even in most versions of 2/1, 3♣ shows extras beyond a minimum opening bid, and that is in the context of partner showing gf values. In contrast, a SAYC 2/1 response may be on a misfitting 10 count. So 3♣, in basic bidding theory, is significant extra values.

 

And while you have a powerful playing hand, your spade suit is crap.... and you hold NO FIT and 10 hcp.

 

So 3♣ was a huge overbid, especially since it in no way suggested 5=6 shape.

 

Given that 3♣ was gf, 3♦ is simply not needed as FSF... 3♠ by partner would be unpassable.... you haven't reached game yet, so by definition it has to be forcing.

 

In fairness, there is a fringe minority of experts who advocate 1♠ with your hand, led by Steve Robinson who is certainly a very strong expert... but he is very much on the fringes of bidding theory in this regard. I doubt that one expert in 100 agrees with him on this point.

 

As for hands on which one should open the 5 card suit, there is some disagreement in the expert community.. but it is about where to draw the line, rather than basic theory.

 

I tend to bid shape more than the median expert. So with x AQJxx AQxxxx x, I'd bid 1♦ then 2♥... others might require a little more strength, some might even do it with a tad less. x KJxxx AQJxxx x, I'd open 1♥

 

x Jxxxx AKQxxx x... if I opened, and I might not, it would be 1♦ and I'd ignore the hearts unless partner bid them.

 

But black 2 suiters don't pose this type of problem. The only constructive auction that is anyway problematic is when partner bids 1N (whether in response to 1♣ or after an overcall). Now you may miss a 5-3 spade fit unless your hand is strong enough to bid 2♠. But these auctions rarely occur (especially the uncontested ones, when you hold 11 black cards and modest strength) and you will usually be at least as well off in clubs as in spades when this does happen.

[KamalK]

Many thanks to all who took the time and effort to respond to my query. The discussion was indeed very useful and all inputs have helped me for my future bidding. But for the discussions here, I would never ever be convinced to open 1♣ and would probably have continued towing my line of (wrong) thought.

 

So much to learn for me by regularly visiting the Forum :rolleyes:

 

With warm regards

 

Kamal

[the hog]

In contrast to the others - 1S with this hand is fine. You have nice distribution, but you cannot cope with high level Heart bids. Show the Major first.

[Guest Jlall]

In contrast to the others - 1S with this hand is fine. You have nice distribution, but you cannot cope with high level Heart bids. Show the Major first.

What? If they are going to make high level heart bids you'd MUCH prefer to have opened 1C. If it goes 1S 4H p p or something you have no idea what to do. If it goes 1C 4H p p you can easily bid 4S, and feel safe that you will end in the right strain, and can stop at the 4 level. If the auction gets competitive I'm very happy to have opened 1C. And if the auction isn't going to be competitive then I'd much rather open...1C. After 1S p 2H p 2S is just sick even though you have to bid it, you have never bid your AKQxxx suit!!!!!! I can just imagine it going 1S p 2H p 2S p 3D p 3N. I will really feel great about my good description of my hand, I could not imagine landing in the wrong contract! If you open 1C though you can just rebid 1S then rebid 2S and have described your hand perfectly at a low level.

 

So in summation: If the auction gets competitive I want to open 1C, and if it doesn't get competitive I want to open 1C.

[the hog]

From another post:

 

2) I consider this one really hard. 4H is a big gamble, you can easily be going for 200+ after this, but if you just bid 4C you can easily miss a heart game. I think I would just bid 4C though because with such weak hearts this hand won't play well in a 5-3 fit on a tap, and a 5-4 fit is unlikely with no negative X from pard (but possible of course). I can just see the hand falling apart too easily with clubs being safe, and also clubs will be tough to double if we're going down 1.

 

Not too consisten there.

[Guest Jlall]

Wtf is up with idiots lately taking 2 completely different hands and auctions out of context?

 

ARE

 

YOU

 

DUMB?

 

[X] yes

[ ] no

[the hog]

The hands are almost the same. My English level is such that I do not need to use such language to respond to someone who is obviously a pusillanimous and ignorant brat.

[han]

Don't know enough English to describe 1S as anything but really bad. With 5-6 in the red suits I might open 1H, especially if I have a minimal opener and my hearts are better than my diamonds. But not with clubs and spades, and not when the minor is so much better than the major.

[whereagles]

As usual, agree with Ron. I think 1♠ is perfectly fine, but over 2♥ it is probably better to bid a simple 2♠ and see what pard has to say. The reason is 3♣ should show a slightly better hand in terms of hcp. It didn't cause problems this time, though.

 

I find it funny that people label a opening 1♠ as totally wrong. That reminds me of how things were in chess's (<-- did I write this right??) early days, 1850 to about 1930. A good deal of the players claimed "their system" was far better than anyone else's and yet all of them they failed to become world champions. The actual champions were the ones that learned all those different points of view and integrated them into a coherent, flexible way of play. The same I see happening around this forum. To say how great 1♣ is and how awful 1♠ is (or vice-versa, for that matter), is just backwardism. The correct attitude is to see what the pros and cons of each choice are and, for each particular hand, select the bid that is more likely to work better in that case.

[Guest Jlall]

As usual, agree with Ron. I think 1♠ is perfectly fine, but over 2♥ it is probably better to bid a simple 2♠ and see what pard has to say. The reason is 3♣ should show a slightly better hand in terms of hcp. It didn't cause problems this time, though.

 

I find it funny that people label a opening 1♠ as totally wrong. That reminds me of how things were in chess's (<-- did I write this right??) early days, 1850 to about 1930. A good deal of the players claimed "their system" was far better than anyone else's and yet all of them they failed to become world champions. The actual champions were the ones that learned all those different points of view and integrated them into a coherent, flexible way of play. The same I see happening around this forum. To say how great 1♣ is and how awful 1♠ is (or vice-versa, for that matter), is just backwardism. The correct attitude is to see what the pros and cons of each choice are and, for each particular hand, select the bid that is more likely to work better in that case.

We can't all be world champions like you whereagles!

[whereagles]

hey, I'm dogmatic towards opening 6m-5Ms with the major. That's why I'm not a world champion.. :rolleyes: