Blame time again

[CSGibson]

[hv=d=s&v=e&n=sjtxxxhaqxxdqxckx&w=sakxhtxxdjxxcxxxx&e=shxxxxdxxxcaqjxxx&s=sqxxxxhkjdaktxxct]399|300|Scoring: IMP

1♠-2N*,

4♦-4♥,

4N-5♦,

6♦-(X)-6♠-(P),

P-(X)-All pass

[/hv]

 

for ease, I eliminated east-west passes until the doubling started.

 

2NT was Jacoby, 4 diamonds showed a good 2nd suit, 5 diamonds was 1 or 4 keycards, 6 diamonds asked partner to bid the grand with 3rd round control.

 

Who gets the blame for this mess? What should the auction have been (either playing Jacoby or not, up to you)?

 

Oh, for the record, I was the impatient person who doubled too early playing west. The only redeeming factor is that I knew to lead a club.

[Apollo81]

100% South. I don't like the RKC bid with such bad trumps and no controls outside the shown side suit. South's bidding after 5♦ was probably due to inexperience. When partner shows 1 and you have 1 you are supposed to sign off in 5 and partner will bid on with 4.

[xcurt]

100% South. I don't like the RKC bid with such bad trumps and no controls outside the shown side suit. South's bidding after 5♦ was probably due to inexperience. When partner shows 1 and you have 1 you are supposed to sign off in 5 and partner will bid on with 4.

5S -1 is still a NS disaster.

 

Another hand where nobody limited their hand after 2NT. N went nuts after 4D. Either the HQ or CK is facing shortness. S went nuts after 4H. He needs four out of five of two spade covers, one heart cover, one club cover, and the third round of diamonds, plus there may be a handling charge facing only four trumps if partner's diamond control isn't the DQ.

 

I was going to say I blame the partnership equally for not discussing forcing major suit raises adequately, but that's a cop-out. Both N and S get 100% of the blame since both of them could and should have averted the disaster.

[matmat]

south has a min 5-5 with bad trumps. after the 4d call, 4s is sufficient

[Winstonm]

Jacoby 2N sucks - poor sepeartion of minimum forcing hands from other forcing hands.

 

Playing Better Bergen Bidding*:

1S-3S**

4D***-4H

4S-P

 

*See The Bridge World - November 2007

**12-15, 2-4 control cards (Aces or Kings)

***natural second suit, mild slam interest (Partner could hold: KJxx, Axx, Qx, Axxx)

[kenrexford]

Jacoby 2N sucks ...

Another Jacoby 2NT Hater!!! B)

 

(Jacoby 2NT = Gerber???)

 

Same objection -- different reason, though. Again, my feeling is that Jacoby 2NT works best when the person using that tool wishes to ask questions (as Jacoby 2NT is an asking bid) and has Ace-and-spaces, not Quacks. This time (as opposed to another thread), the reason is similar -- with Quacks, you want the chance to show where these cards are (tell, rather than ask). Two side Queens -- bid 2/1.

 

This set of hands works, again, quite well with a (normal?) natural/cuebidding approach:

 

1♠-P-2♣(yep! could be short)-P-

2♦(could be short)-P-2♠(spades agreed)-P-

2NT (not two of the top three spades)-P-3♦(not two of top three clubs, one of top three diamonds)-P-

3♥(heart 1st/2nd control)-P-4♣(not two of top three spades, not serious interest, one of top two clubs)-P-

4♦(remaining two of top three diamonds)-P-4♥(complementary heart top card -- not LTTC because not serious)-P-

???

 

Opener can visualize a possible ♠A, ♥A, ♦Q, ♣A and nothing more. That would be just about enough for a fair slam (trumps are still dubious). Opener has two options.

 

First (my choice), Opener could "decline" the slam by bidding 4♠. This is a strange sequence. When one partner has made a courtesy cue (4♣), denying serious slam interest thereby, and then when the other person makes a cuebid two below trumps (4♦, two below 4♠), which only occurs in this sequence at first analysis, then a cue by the non-serious person of the next-up suit (4♥) is the only positive showing available below game. As that positive showing cannot be the cause for discouragement to his partner (it can, but it is too rare to care about), that positive cannot yield a true "sign off" by his partner. Hence, 4♠ by Opener, strangely, would be a "Last Train" type of bid, suggesting the need for something else. That "something else" is, as always, contextual. The context here seems to perhaps be some help in trumps (everyone has denied good trumps, diamonds are known to be solid, etc.), although an equally plausible and probably more reasonable assessment is whether the club control is the Ace or King. Either works, though. Responder has only the club King and not even a single top trump, so he quickly passes.

 

That option may be too weird for some. The easier option for Opener may be to just ask. 4NT yields a 1 or 4 answer, and Responder cannot have 4 (he denied two top spades, and he is non-serious).

[benlessard]

2Nt is atrocious. Hiding a side suit of AKtxx is beyond salvation.

 

1S---2D

2H---2S (if GF)

 

then its going to be easy to stop in 4S.

 

 

Otherwise witn serious 3Nt

 

1S---2D

2H---3S

 

4C (cue but minimum)-----4D (worth another try)

4H----------4S (bad trumps or minimum slam aspirations)

pass

 

With no serious 3Nt

 

1S-----2D

2H-----3S

4D (here i prefer to cue in partner suit instead of 4C on a K) ----4H

4S---- 4Nt etc...

 

1S----2D

2H----3S

4S----pass...

[655321]

I don't like these 2♦ responses on Qx.

B)

[inquiry]

Matmat has it right...

 

1♠ 2N

4♦ 4♥

4♠ Pass

 

4♦ is the jacoby bid

4♥ is forced, as partner could have a monster

4♠ is I told my stuff.....

 

Partner needs a lot for slam. I am missing ♠AK amd ♣A I assume partner has the heart ACE (or if 4♥ was last train then I really, really want to stop).

 

If after hearing a 4♥ bid (presume here cue-bid), if opener (south) wants to spread a warning not continue, what should north do?

 

With his actual hand, pass is clear. Start adding keycards and see how it affects the decision. Opener would not be stopping with four keycards and a second suit. So think of hands where with three cards and two suiter opener would rebid 3♠ and it would be right to bid on. Could he have three key cards plus the diamond king? Say something like:

 

SKxxxx HKx DAKxxx CA -- of course not.

 

How about? SAxxxx Hx DAKxxx CAx -- nope, not that either.

 

So if he has three keycards he will not have the diamond King (so diamond loser and a keycard possible losers). Over 4♠ north has a clear pass. So South misbid this hand, not once, but twice. First when he bid 4NT, second when he didn't bid 5♠ over 5♦. Both are clear mistakes. I thus assign 200% of the blame to south, this is not even close. The only "fault" if you want to call it that for north is that he might have made a limiting bid of 4♥ over 4♦, but give the 4♦ bidder

S=AKxxx H-xx DAKJxx CA and we would ask who to blame when 4♠ gets passed out.

[matmat]

2Nt is atrocious. Hiding a side suit of AKtxx is beyond salvation.

you have the auction upside down.

[matmat]

Matmat has it right...

that's the first time anyone's ever accused me of this.

[Free]

200% South, 2 reasons!

- bidding Blacky with this minimum is wrong

- after Blacky, he should signoff at the 5-level when there is doubt. Partner should continue bidding with 3 or 4 keycards.

[hotShot]

Jacoby 2NT wastes a lot of bidding space, so if you have a good side suit and a single, you should discuss priorities with partner. I would prefer to save bidding space.

1♠ - 2NT

3♣ (single, saves bidding space, North knows about his 3 wasted ♣ points and could sign off with 4♠ now)

- 3♥ (cue)

4♦ (cue) - 4♠ (nothing more to say, not strong enough for more)

all pass

[gnasher]

I blame North, mainly. 4♥ should imply some suitability. With what is probably a working 7-count, he should just sign off. I know that some people think North should cue bid ♥A regardless of their strength and suitability, in case partner is strong, but unless someone limits their hand it becomes almost impossible to judge whether you have the playing strength for slam.

 

South's decision to move past 4♠ was reasonable. He was entitled to expect a reasonable hand opposite, his hand was improved by the cue bid, and he had a club control. AKxx Axxx xx xxx would make a decent slam.

[P_Marlowe]

South.

 

I can understand, why he did bid 4NT, the 4H cue by North was

good news, assuming it showed values.

 

But over 5D he should bid 5H, he assumed more or less a grand

may be on, but North just showed some willingness to cooperate,

nothing more.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: Of course I understand the argument, that oppossite 1 KC

5S will already be in trouble, which may explain, why South went

for the whole jackpot, but South did not know, that North was

missing AK in spades, if North did have the Ace of spades 5S

would be 50% not great, but ...

[helene_t]

I thought 4♦ should show a much better hand but I might be wrong. Obviously North thought that 4♦ demands a cuebid. If that is the case, South has no business bidding anything other than 4♠ over 4♥.

 

It is conceivable that 4♦ shows a minimum and 4♥ now shows slam interest even opposite that minimum. But I don't think J2NT is supposed to work like that.

 

So 100% blame to South.

[brianshark]

I am going to assign almost all of the blame to north. South's 4♦ bid is very descriptive and north has a crap minimum with poor trumps and almost all of his points in partner's short suits. He should have just signed off instead of bidding 4♥.

[Free]

I am going to assign almost all of the blame to north. South's 4♦ bid is very descriptive and north has a crap minimum with poor trumps and almost all of his points in partner's short suits. He should have just signed off instead of bidding 4♥.

So next time opener has AKQxx-xx-AKJxx-x he won't try for slam because you lack a ♥ control. Or with AKQxx-x-AKJxx-xx he'll try and go -1 in slam on a ♣ lead because he thought you had ♣A (failing to cuebid 4♥)...

 

Opener has shown a lot of his distribution, you're right about that, but he hasn't shown anything about his strength. He will (should) do that after you cuebid out of courtesy with 4♠.

[Codo]

So lets discuss all bids:

 

1. 1 ♠ what else

 

2. 2 NT what else- you may agree on different forcing raise but if you discuss jac2NT, this is your bid.

 

3. 4 ♦, you surely have a strong side suit and this bid is a million times more describtive then 3 Club or 3 or 4 Spade.

 

4. 4 ♥ I bet that at most 10% of all partnerships had discussed in detail what this is, so judgement is anything. As north I had really liked my hand at this point.

I have a fifth trump, controls in the side suits and a filler in diamond. This hand is worth a slam try. The problem is: Does 4 Heart deny a club control or is it just fowardgoing? Does it even show values in Hearts? Hopefully you and your partner thinks along the same lines here. These pair did not.

 

5. 4 NT Okay, there are two schools: One: You MUST limit your hand now, so 4 Spade is mandatory. In this case 4 NT is a clear overbid. The second school is: 4 Spade would deny a Club cue, so you must bid 4 NT here and 4 Spade had missed a slam opposite AKxxx,Axxx,Qx,xx. At least south was a member of the second school.

 

 

6. 5 ♦ what else?

 

7. 6 ♦. South did not realisze that his pd may have just 1 KC and must bid the obvious 5 Spade.

 

So both did not understand their system, so both are at fault, South a little more then North.

 

And I totally agree that jac2NT sucks if you play it this way.

[ArtK78]

south has a min 5-5 with bad trumps. after the 4d call, 4s is sufficient

Agree 100%. South is entirely to blame.

 

Stop blaming the convention. Blame the way players use the convention.

 

The bidding was fine up until 4NT. South should bid 4♠ and that should end the auction.

[neilkaz]

I am going to assign almost all of the blame to north. South's 4♦ bid is very descriptive and north has a crap minimum with poor trumps and almost all of his points in partner's short suits. He should have just signed off instead of bidding 4♥.

So next time opener has AKQxx-xx-AKJxx-x he won't try for slam because you lack a ♥ control. Or with AKQxx-x-AKJxx-xx he'll try and go -1 in slam on a ♣ lead because he thought you had ♣A (failing to cuebid 4♥)...

 

Opener has shown a lot of his distribution, you're right about that, but he hasn't shown anything about his strength. He will (should) do that after you cuebid out of courtesy with 4♠.

Agreed !

 

But the 4♦ takes up so much room, and perhaps should be reserved for a slightly better hand that S holds ? ie...one with a bit better looking trumps. But if 4♥ shows the ace, it is really hard to stop, if its just LTTC, then 4♠ is clear, and if it is any control, well...if could be a stiff and then 4♠ is clear.

 

Anyhow, I suspect that I would often be in 5♠ -1 with these cards as I can see S stopping in 4♠ and missing slams when N is unable/willing to continue.

 

100% South blame here...for again being blinded by love..as usual not the love of another, but the love of his hand. I must admit that if 4♥ shows the ace, it is hard to not RKC, but you need to find pd with 3 key cards to have play for slam and if he has just 1 as here, you get 10 tricks.

 

The real blame goes to South for being so mindlessly in love that he forgot to s/off in 5♠ just in case PD didn't have 4 keys...LOL he makes a :rolleyes: grand slam try :rolleyes:

 

The jump to 4♦ takes too much room and should be reserved for a hand not needing as much extra help for slam as South's does. 4♦ is poorly judged here, IMHO (but then J2NT classic responses are rather poor to put in mildly) since the info South needs here for slam is trump strength and round suit controls. I would go slowly and show my stiff and somewhat above a min with 3♣.

 

I would hope (playing std J2NT) that the auction at my basic 2/1 table would go..

 

1♠-2N-3♣ (stiff and not a sub-min) and now North hates his K of ♣ and signs off in game, and if he decides to cooperate 3♥ (I clearly wouldn't) I cooperate 4♦ and hope I can find a pass after his 4♠ showing that he's not impressed with my 4♦ and hand shown so far to try for slam.

 

Anyhow, by starting with 3♣, South would likely have curtailed this hand in 4♠ rather than taking up too much room with 4♦ and failing to realize the trap of weak trumps and 3 key cards needed for slam.

[kenrexford]

Just out of curiosity, since there are some advocates to the idea that J2NT is OK for this hand, let's forget all of the possible problems that might occur if Opener makes any call other than 4♦ as his next call. The permutations of problems is too difficult to cover all at once, so let's focus on the one problem.

 

What, precisely, do people expect for a 4♦ call?

 

According to Karen's Bridge Library, it shows nothing more than a second five-card "decent" suit (QJxxx+). No more information.

 

According to Bridge Buys, this shows at least two honors (KJ10xx provided as an example) and "the values for attempting slam," whatever that means.

 

From this, I cannot decipher whether the standard treatment is to expect a Rule-of-Twenty 5-5 10-count opening, or a monster almost 2♣ opening, hand type.

 

No discussion of control count seems to be provided. Five losers? Better? Worse? What does LTTC (if available -- not so after 4♥) seek?

 

Some of the comments here suggest vague thoughts about whatever 4♦ must show.

[helene_t]

Thanks, Ken. It sounds as if we should blame the system after all. Or maybe the lack of system, rather.

[neilkaz]

Ken wrote: According to Bridge Buys, this shows at least two honors (KJ10xx provided as an example) and "the values for attempting slam," whatever that means.

 

Neil replies: The hand given at bridge guys is a monster and certainly has the values to be attempting slam, whereas the hand shown here by the OP isn't much more than a good min opener. Again, I feel that 4 level jumps should be reserved for hands with good 5 card suits and good trumps....ie something where fitting suit cards from PD are huge for slam, and therefore PD won't be too impressed if he holds minor honors in the other suits and won't be concerned if missing AK in trumps. I guess we can say 4 level jumps should at least be somewhat of a picture bid, but should the need for at least some help from PD to complete the picture.

 

Hmm... sounds like a rather rare bird to me..neilkaz ..who'd clearly reply 3♣ to J2NT here and likely stay out of trouble.

[mikeh]

I have played 4♦ as a 'goodish' 5 card suit for years, in various partnerships, altho my serious partnerships generally use different forcing raise structures so this doesn't come up there. I have never had any discussion about the overall hand type shown (just the suit) and I suspect that this is common in casual partnerships.

 

Obviously, this is a drawback to the method.. but I don't know anyone who argues that 'standard' variants of J2N (where 4 new suit is played as a void by some and as a 5 card suit by others) are optimum methods.

 

Given the limitations of the method, it is my view that N was correct in bidding 4♥, since his diamond Q had grown in value, and he was not committing the partnership beyond game.

 

It is also my view that in unlimited auctions of this nature, where neither partner has been able to limit his hand, the player who goes beyond game must hold some extras, in the context of the auction. Please note that last phrase.

 

In this case, look at S's hand. He has described an opening hand with 5-5 or better in his suits, and has promised a fairly strong diamond suit. How, then, can he think that he has 'extras'?

 

Some would argue that the stiff club shows extras... and so it might... but it is only one factor, and the rest of the hand screams 'minimum'.

 

S should also consider the hand types that N requires for slam to be good... spend some time doing this and you will soon see that there are very few hands on which slam is good and North will pass 4♠. That is not the same as saying there are no such hands... but bridge is a game of percentages. As the actual auction showed, when we strain to NEVER miss a good slam, we will often end up minus on a hand that belonged to us.

 

In the context of the auction, S had a minimum and it was his duty to limit his hand, and to trust his partner to move when right.

 

Finally, of course S erred when he assumed partner held 4 keycards. This highlights the lunacy of using keycard. Yes, I know that the standard treatment when partner shows 1/4 or 0/3 is to sign off and partner moves with the higher number... In all the many, many years I have used keycard I have NEVER not known how many partner held. In my view, bidding keycard when one cannot tell 1 from 4 or 0 from 3 is a very strong signal that the use of keycard was inappropriate. I would go so far as to suggest, as a rule of thumb, that if you are considering keycard and realize that you will be facing this situation, make some other call..... keycard is almost certainly not the best call available to you at this point.... btw, this is not a prompt for people to create unusual hands where keycard is the best call.... I said and stress 'almost certainly'.