1NT-2C or 3NT

[kgr]

Probably this was discussed before...

You partner opens 1NT and you have enough HCP for game (e.g. 15-17 opposite 10+)

You distribution is 4M=3=3=3.

Do you bid 1NT-3NT or do you go over stayman to find 4-4 fit in the majors?:

- always

- rather at MP's then at IMP's, or vice versa?

- rather with 25 pts combined then with 30 pts, or vice versa?

- Suppose you have a tool to find if partner is also 4-3-3-3; Eg: 1NT-2C-2S-3H promises a 4-card Spade fit and partner will bid 3NT with 4=3=3=3. Do you prefer to use stayman if you have this tool to find if 1NT opener has a doubleton?

[655321]

3NT pretty much always for me.

[kenrexford]

It depends.

 

IMO, any 3-card, 4-card, or 5-card suit might look contextually like its length is one more or one less than it actually is and be treated accordingly.

[Mbodell]

Wouldn't it be better to find out if the opener has a doubleton (or 5 card major) before you do stayman rather than after? I.e., if you are going to leak information to the opponents about the opener's hand shape isn't is better to find out opener is some 4333 rather than the specific major in question?

 

Therefore I'd do 1NT-2♣-2♦-2NT which is a game force shape relay in KERI. Now opener bids 3M with a 5 card major, 3♦ with any 4333, and 3♣ with a doubleton. Now if opener bids 3♣ I can bid 3♦ and ask about the major happy to play in 4M if they match. If opener bids 3♦ I can bid 3NT and not disclose either hand's major holding and not play in a bad 4M contract. And if opener shows the 5cM opposite my 4cM I can bid 4M and 5cM opposite my 3 card major I can choose between 3NT and 4M (usually I'd choose 3NT, if partner tended to open 5422 hands with NT I'd go for 4M but my partner doesn't tend to do that).

[Flameous]

3♦ Puppet and I know what to do. We have it especially for these hands.

[awm]

I normally bid stayman at MPs and bid 3NT at IMPs. In some partnerships I have methods to avoid 4M on 4333 opposite 4333 while reaching it on 4333 opposite 4(432)/4(225).

 

The general rule I've seen is that when you have 4333 opposite 4432, an eight card major suit fit will usually (but not always) take one trick more than notrump. I think it's something like 60% the major takes one trick more, 30% they take same number of tricks, and 10% something else happens (i.e. notrump is awful on xxx opposite xx in some suit, or the suit contract is awful because trumps break 5-0). So at MP you want to be in the contract that takes the extra trick more than half the time (4M) whereas at IMPs you want to be in the cheaper game (3NT) exchanging a few one imp losses when 4M makes the extra trick for a smaller number of huge gains when both contracts make nine tricks exactly.

[Free]

I blast to 3NT almost every time.

[P_Marlowe]

I usally bid always Stayman, unless I have lots of HCP to spare,

in which case I would bid 3NT direct.

If I have a tool to find out, that partner is also 4333, I would use

this tool, unless I have lots of HCP to spare, but even than using

the tool is a real option.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Finch]

One important point that hasn't been made is that it depends on your partnership 1NT opening style. There are people who post here who open 1NT on 4441s, on many (most?) 5422s, on 5332s with a 5-card major and even on some 5431s. If partner thinks that, say, Qxxx KQxx K AQxx or Kxx AKxxx xx AQx are 1NT openings, then you'd be wise to look for a 4-4 fit holding AJx J10xx xxx Kxx as responder.

 

My rule as with so many of the judgement questions is to 'look at my hand' not have some blind rule based solely on HCP or form of scoring. Everyone, even the most ardent Stayman addict, would raise 1NT to 3NT looking at

 

QJ10

K432

QJ10

QJ10

 

But

 

KQ10x

xxx

AKx

xxx

 

looks as if it could play very well in spades.

 

In my regular partnerships I have methods to find a 4-4 major suit fit and then offer 3NT as a possible contract, although of course the downside is that gives oppo information about your hands. However, even if you don't play any clever method, if you have an invitational hand you can always bid 1NT - 2C - 2H - 3H and opener should be allowed to bid 3NT to suggest playing there.

[dcvetkov]

I normally bid stayman at MPs and bid 3NT at IMPs. In some partnerships I have methods to avoid 4M on 4333 opposite 4333 while reaching it on 4333 opposite 4(432)/4(225).

 

The general rule I've seen is that when you have 4333 opposite 4432, an eight card major suit fit will usually (but not always) take one trick more than notrump. I think it's something like 60% the major takes one trick more, 30% they take same number of tricks, and 10% something else happens (i.e. notrump is awful on xxx opposite xx in some suit, or the suit contract is awful because trumps break 5-0). So at MP you want to be in the contract that takes the extra trick more than half the time (4M) whereas at IMPs you want to be in the cheaper game (3NT) exchanging a few one imp losses when 4M makes the extra trick for a smaller number of huge gains when both contracts make nine tricks exactly.

Is this really true? I would say it is the other way around, 3NT is more appealing at MP. Provided you have enough HCP power, often number of tricks will be the same. Maybe it wins when partner has a doubleton, and we have marginal game values, like 9 points, but even then u may not need the ruff. and playing 4-3-3-3 oposite 4-3-3-3 in major? Blah..

 

With excess HCP power, like 12+ points, 3NT will be almost always the winner, even opposite 4-4-3-2-

[helene_t]

Most say that 3N is more attractive at MPs but I suspect that Adam is right. Good problem for a simulation.

 

FWIW I always bid 3N. I suspect that Stayman is slightly better DD (even if you don't have a tool to find 4333) but the lack of disclosure of opener's hand makes 3N slightly better. I could easily be wrong.

[Codo]

1. Best tip: Frances good thoughts (look at your hand, don't follow blind rules)

 

2. Ask yourself if you need your 1 NT 3 ♥ and 1 NT 3 ♠ bids. If not, use them for 4333 hand with 4 in the other major. Now partner can decide. I find this much more useful then 5431 or the use for game forcing one suitersand it happens quite frequently.

 

3. The more HCPS the easier is 3 NT, so with 12-15 HCPS I would always prefer 3 NT if I cannot follow rule one or two.

[TimG]

Most say that 3N is more attractive at MPs but I suspect that Adam is right. Good problem for a simulation.

The trouble with a double dummy simulation here is that you need to be able to quantify the value of concealment. There will be no difference in the double dummy result for the auctions 1N-3N and 1N-2C-2D-3N on the same hands, but there is a statistically significant real world difference*.

 

A few weeks ago, I ran some double dummy simulations to look into this very matter. I dealt only with 4432 and 4333 hands, ignoring the possibility of opening 1NT on 5422 or 5M332 hands. One result that surprised me a bit is that when responder has a 4432 hand, it may be right to hunt for a 44 fit, but the really good news comes when you don't find one. 4=4=3=2 opposite 2=3=4=4 produced game in NT when there was no 44 fit more often than 4M made when there was a 44 major suit fit. Having long card potential in all four suits was a clear winner -- I imagine it would have been an even bigger winner on a non-double dummy basis. (For this study, I was looking at cases where HCPs were divided about 15-9 or 15-10 -- cases where game was making about 50% of the time on a double dummy basis.)

 

* 8-9 years ago I worked on a study of this with 3 other people using a few million OKbridge results. We found that even an auction like 1N-2N-3N was better for the defense than 1N-3N.

[andy_h]

One important point that hasn't been made is that it depends on your partnership 1NT opening style. There are people who post here who open 1NT on 4441s, on many (most?) 5422s, on 5332s with a 5-card major and even on some 5431s. If partner thinks that, say, Qxxx KQxx K AQxx or Kxx AKxxx xx AQx are 1NT openings, then you'd be wise to look for a 4-4 fit holding AJx J10xx xxx Kxx as responder.

 

My rule as with so many of the judgement questions is to 'look at my hand' not have some blind rule based solely on HCP or form of scoring. Everyone, even the most ardent Stayman addict, would raise 1NT to 3NT looking at

 

QJ10

K432

QJ10

QJ10

 

But

 

KQ10x

xxx

AKx

xxx

 

looks as if it could play very well in spades.

 

In my regular partnerships I have methods to find a 4-4 major suit fit and then offer 3NT as a possible contract, although of course the downside is that gives oppo information about your hands. However, even if you don't play any clever method, if you have an invitational hand you can always bid 1NT - 2C - 2H - 3H and opener should be allowed to bid 3NT to suggest playing there.

Agreed. Don't follow rules blindly.

[kgr]

Thanks all for the answers. My thoughts after reading them.

- extra HCP's seems to favor 3NT

- not sure what consequence of MP's vs IMP's is :rolleyes:

- I especially wonder if the extra info you give the opps is worth finding the fit 50% (..or less?) of the time and opener having then 4432. :rolleyes:

[mikeh]

Thanks all for the answers. My thoughts after reading them.

- extra HCP's seems to favor 3NT

- not sure what consequence of MP's vs IMP's is  :rolleyes:

- I especially wonder if the extra info you give the opps is worth finding the fit 50% (..or less?) of the time and opener having then 4432.  :rolleyes:

These are valid points.

 

I read, many years ago, Woolsey writing on matchpoints, and his 'rules' for bidding 3N rather than stayman stressed the need for extra hcp for 3N. As Frances points out, this is not a rule to be followed blindly, but it has served me well over the years.... I generally look for the major (while devaluing my hand a point) if I hold 4333 opposite 1N unless I hold at least 12 hcp, where I know we have 27+.

 

While I read of this in a book on mps, my experience suggests that it is good advice for imps as well.

 

Another important factor is the quality of the 4 card major... I still remember wininng a short match when I chose 3N with a 12 count and a heart suit that resembled Jxxx. The other table 'found' their 3-trump-loser 4-4 fit, when trump broke 4-1, while our 3N was never in jeopardy.

 

And there is always a warm feeling when one bids 3N and the opening lead is either dummy's major or opener's major... the lead being blind.

 

However, as is often the case, there are going to be hands on which this approach fails badly. I don't open 1N with a 5 card major and a side 4 card suit (I really don't understand why anyone would) nor with a stiff (again, why? Are your methods so deficient that this is the best approach?), but I routinely open 5332 hands, especially with hearts where a 1♠ response will endplay me in the auction.