DrTodd13 Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 [hv=d=s&v=n&n=sxxhaxxdqxxcatxxx&s=saxxxxhkqxxxdxckx]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv] Playing strong club, 15+. Bidding proceeds 1♠-2♣-2♥-2♠-3♥-pass. Rate the goodness/badness of each call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Kickass. Am I supposed to be worried that they missed a game with 22 hcp, no 9 card fit, and no singletons in the short hand? Boo hoo. North even has a completely worthless queen of diamonds. Every bid was dead on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTodd13 Posted May 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 If this hand isn't enough then what north hand consistent with 2♣ followed by 2♠ would ever accept a 3♥ invite? Put the ♦Q in a major instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 How is it possible to answer this question without knowing what system you play? 1C as 15+ is not enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 How can 3♥ be non-forcing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTodd13 Posted May 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 How can 3♥ be non-forcing? How can it be forcing when both players are limited? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTodd13 Posted May 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 How is it possible to answer this question without knowing what system you play? 1C as 15+ is not enough. More details on the system. We open all unbalanced 11 counts and all balanced 12 counts. Responses to major openings are SAYC style, drury is available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 If 2♣ on the North hand is permissible, then I can understand how 3♥ can be nonforcing. Getting to 3♥ on these cards isn't a disaster. I suspect it is fairly normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 If this hand isn't enough then what north hand consistent with 2♣ followed by 2♠ would ever accept a 3♥ invite? Put the ♦Q in a major instead? I don't consider 3♥ to be an invite. It just shows a minimum 5-5, which is in fact what South has. There's several ways to bid a stronger hand with South with different forms of Precision, such as 3♥ the first time if you don't use that as Splinter (ick), or 3♦ as 4th suit forcing over 2♠. I don't think it really matters where the Queen is in the North hand. It's just....under 24 hcp, no singleton in the hand with shorter trumps, and no 9+ card fit. At least the way I learned Precision, if you don't have any of those three, you don't go for game. Um, Cherdano, the way I play Precision 2♥ isn't forcing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTodd13 Posted May 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 Yeah, we play 2♥ as minimum non-forcing. 3♥ after 2♣ is 5-5 max, still not forcing. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 How can 3♥ be non-forcing? How can it be forcing when both players are limited? North showed a 3-card limit raise, and South make a re-game try with 3♥.Oh no, North showed an invitational hand, and South showed an acceptance with 3♥, offering a choice of games.Do you play 2♥ as non-forcing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTodd13 Posted May 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 How can 3♥ be non-forcing? How can it be forcing when both players are limited? North showed a 3-card limit raise, and South make a re-game try with 3♥.Oh no, North showed an invitational hand, and South showed an acceptance with 3♥, offering a choice of games.Do you play 2♥ as non-forcing? I think a 3-card limit raise would have been 3♠ after 2♠. After 2♥, his only real options are pass, 2♠, and 2N. 2N seems unwise given the ♦ weakness. 2♠ keeps the bidding alive and takes a preference to playing the 5-2 versus the 4-3. We don't play 2♥ as forcing so pass is an option but not the best I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 I think a 3-card limit raise would have been 3♠ after 2♠. Why even have a 3 card limit raise bid? If responder has 10 hcp, 2-3 spades, and 5+ clubs, he bids 2♣ and then signs off in 2♠ or passes 2♥. Why admit to the opponents that you actually have a fit? If responder has 12 hcp, 3 spades, and 5+ clubs, he just bids 4♠ over 1♠. What are you looking for? If responder has 14+ hcp, 3 spades, and 5+ clubs, now he needs 3♠ over 2♥ to show this hand. At any rate, I take 2♠ to be signoff. God knows he has the right hand for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 If 2H showed a minimum (so 11-13) then it makes some sense to play that 3H is NF. So it seems that south has shown a 11-13 count with 5-5 in the majors. Presumably with a very poor hand south would pass 2S so perhaps that south has shown a 13-count 5-5 hand? Hard to fault south then because that's exactly what he has. 3H at MPs seems fine. You might make 4, you might go down, it seems like a perfectly reasonable spot and a good auction within the system. While your 2C response is SAYC-like, your follow-ups really aren't (2H NF is very different) so I think you shouldn't describe it as SAYC like. Again, it is not possible to evaluate the auction without knowing the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTodd13 Posted May 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 The result was 3♥ making 6 for a near bottom. Most of the field was in 4 making. Are they all insane to be in 4 or is there some wisdom in it that most people here seem to be missing? I don't think that 2/1 or SA is any better at sorting these hands out so I think this is more of a judgement issue rather than a systemic issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 I would want to force to game as south given my club holding, but it's tricky since I want to show 5-5 but not bypass 3NT. I guess this does depend on methods to a large extent. It's funny since I think bidding 2♣ instead of 1NT should have helped you get to game when compared to the field. All that said, I realize game is not amazing, but it seems good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manudude03 Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 A lot of people in the club I go to use LTC for their judgement calls, 5 loser opposite the 8 loser says you should be in 5. My guess is that North has to bid it after 3H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbodell Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Again, hard to tell without knowing the system more but I'd certainly want to treat the south hand like a maximum, not minimum, opener. I think it is much closer to a 1♣ opener than to a pass. The control rich 5-5 in the majors 5 LTC hand is just to good to go quietly. If 2♥ is NF then I think that was a bad bid. If the 2♥ was F1 and the 3♥/2♠ suggests maximum 5-5 then I think that was perfect and it is North's fault for not bidding 4♥. If South has really just showed a minimum 55 hand then North's pass is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 As someone else said, "1♣ 15+" isn't enough. The way I've played forcing club, South would bid 3♥ over 2C. At MPs, North might pass (3♥ is not forcing), at IMPs he'd go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted May 12, 2008 Report Share Posted May 12, 2008 3♥ was semi-forcing (I would call it forcing but opener is limited since its strong club) so responder should clearly raise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted May 12, 2008 Report Share Posted May 12, 2008 I wonder how the field is consistently getting to game here. I can see the start 1♠ - 1N (F1) - 2♥ and N as a tricky call here. 2♠ is an underbid and 2N is a little weird too. either way, the perfecto 4♥ seems a long way off. How did you make 6? Did you get the ♣Q lead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted May 12, 2008 Report Share Posted May 12, 2008 I wonder how the field is consistently getting to game here 1s-1n-2h-[2n,3h]-etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skjaeran Posted May 12, 2008 Report Share Posted May 12, 2008 3♥ should be, invitational with 5-5 here, else there's no real reason to take another bid. Raising to 4♥ with the north hand seems pretty normal to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrTodd13 Posted May 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2008 I wonder how the field is consistently getting to game here. I can see the start 1♠ - 1N (F1) - 2♥ and N as a tricky call here. 2♠ is an underbid and 2N is a little weird too. either way, the perfecto 4♥ seems a long way off. How did you make 6? Did you get the ♣Q lead? I got a ♥ lead. A♠ and another with west winning. Small club lead east putting in the Q. Take club hook, pitching ♦, trump, ruff ♦, ruff ♠, ♦ ruff, pull trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASkolnick Posted May 12, 2008 Report Share Posted May 12, 2008 Opposite a dead minimum. You can see 1 Spade loser2 Minor losers and thats it. Even if it does not make all the time, it rates to be 50% since I don't see where your losers are coming from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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