NickRW Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 Something that I found suprising, make thatastonishing, was that undo is permitted not onlyon bidding but on play. I had always thoughtthat if a card hit the table then it could not betaken back. I think it should be so: if you make a mistake you should pay for it. Maybe I am missing something, but I see nodifference between undoing bid and play in bridgeand undoing a home run pitch in baseball. What you're probably missing is that the bids and plays are entered by an operator. A lot of the undos are as a result of the operator making a mistake in copying what actually happened at the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted June 21, 2008 Report Share Posted June 21, 2008 Something that I found suprising, make thatastonishing, was that undo is permitted not onlyon bidding but on play. I had always thoughtthat if a card hit the table then it could not betaken back. I think it should be so: if you make a mistake you should pay for it. Maybe I am missing something, but I see nodifference between undoing bid and play in bridgeand undoing a home run pitch in baseball. What you're probably missing is that the bids and plays are entered by an operator. A lot of the undos are as a result of the operator making a mistake in copying what actually happened at the table.Which is very easy to do, especially with the Italians who tend to show their cards for a microsecond, then claim and everyone puts their cards away. Also it is warm here so sticky keys on the laptops are troublesome. p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 ...ITALY? Angelini - Bocchi - Duboin - Lauria - Sementa - Versace What the... Benching the best pair B)... Sementa-Angelini in Pau - Butler of -.69 IMPs before being benched. Fantoni-Nunes Butler in Shanghai +.84 (1st) in the round robin Sources:Pau: After 19 Butler (see just after Pizza of San Marino) Shanghai Bulletin 9 (see page 18) Edit: Sementa-Angelini now unbenched to play against Iceland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted June 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Nice to have 3 pairs of the same strength... BRINK Sjoert DRIJVER Bas +0.60WESTRA Berry RAMONDT Vincent +0.60BERTENS Huub BAKKEREN Ton +0.53 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Nice to have 3 pairs of the same strength... BRINK Sjoert DRIJVER Bas +0.60WESTRA Berry RAMONDT Vincent +0.60BERTENS Huub BAKKEREN Ton +0.53 They may have played against different opponents, butler only says so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 ...ITALY? Angelini - Bocchi - Duboin - Lauria - Sementa - Versace What the... Benching the best pair :(... Sementa-Angelini in Pau - Butler of -.69 IMPs before being benched. Fantoni-Nunes Butler in Shanghai +.84 (1st) in the round robin Sources:Pau: After 19 Butler (see just after Pizza of San Marino) Sorry, this is just TOO funny...Especially after reading comments about sponsors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 What on earth is Germany doing on top? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted June 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 What on earth is Germany doing on top? Playing well, I guess :) They have become really dangerous. After all they got 1st and 3rd in the last two Champion's Trophies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Rumors here in Germany say that they are much better if the tournement is just for a weekend like the Champions Cup and worse in a long event. We will wait and see and hope. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Nice to have 3 pairs of the same strength... BRINK Sjoert DRIJVER Bas +0.60WESTRA Berry RAMONDT Vincent +0.60BERTENS Huub BAKKEREN Ton +0.53 They may have played against different opponents, butler only says so much. Yes, it amazes me how much faith people put into the butler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 I'm not that keen on Butler, but players in the same team play the same opposing teams, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Yes, it amazes me how much faith people put into the butler. and what stat by pair would you suggest they put their faith in then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Yes, it amazes me how much faith people put into the butler. and what stat by pair would you suggest they put their faith in then? Who says you have to put your faith in any "stat by pair"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Yes, it amazes me how much faith people put into the butler. and what stat by pair would you suggest they put their faith in then? I think trying to use stats for things they cannot be used for is stupid. If you were to say to me: One pair had a butler of +1, the other of -1, over hundreds of boards. I would say it is safe to draw the conclusion that the +1 pair is playing better than the -1 pair. If you were to say to me 3 pairs had butlers within .1 imp of each other over a couple of hundred boards, I would say that saying those pairs are all playing roughly equally well is dumb. Some pairs play mainly against weak pairs strategically (perhaps they have a more active style, or stranger methods). This favors that pair. Often the weakest pair on a team will be in against the weaker teams while the strongest pair takes a breather. This hurts the strongest pair on the teams butler a lot, and helps the weaker pairs butler. In imps, since a few boards have a large weight on the overall butler score, sometimes you can get killed on the slam hands just because of luck. This can severely hurt your butler. So I totally favor drawing reasonable conclusions from the butler, but people consistently draw unreasonable conclusions from them. Drawing unreasonable conclusions is worse than drawing no conclusions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
655321 Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 I think butlers are very useful as a long term guide. If a pair does well on butlers in one event it may not mean a lot - they may have played weaker pairs, got lucky on slams, etc. But if a pair consistently does well on butlers, it is pretty safe to assume they are playing well. And, equally, if a pair has one event where they are average on butlers it may not mean much. But if a pair is consistently average-poor on butlers it means a lot. Sure, possibly people should have some idea if they are playing well or not, without the aid of butler scores. But IMO an objective measure is more, um, objective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Now to confuse the Butlers we have the partnership of Versace-Sementa playing Holland (no, not the Netherlands, but the English partnership of Holland-Armstrong). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bidule4 Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Yes, it amazes me how much faith people put into the butler. and what stat by pair would you suggest they put their faith in then? I think trying to use stats for things they cannot be used for is stupid. If you were to say to me: One pair had a butler of +1, the other of -1, over hundreds of boards. I would say it is safe to draw the conclusion that the +1 pair is playing better than the -1 pair. If you were to say to me 3 pairs had butlers within .1 imp of each other over a couple of hundred boards, I would say that saying those pairs are all playing roughly equally well is dumb. Some pairs play mainly against weak pairs strategically (perhaps they have a more active style, or stranger methods). This favors that pair. Often the weakest pair on a team will be in against the weaker teams while the strongest pair takes a breather. This hurts the strongest pair on the teams butler a lot, and helps the weaker pairs butler. Dont think many teams make the lineup after looking at opps lineup. (Can be between teams that often meet,like USA-Itay or Italy-Norway) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MFA Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Dont think many teams make the lineup after looking at opps lineup. (Can be between teams that often meet,like USA-Itay or Italy-Norway)In Pau we have blind lineup, just as in the Bermuda Bowl. Curiously the butler from the final rounds have not yet been published. Perhaps it's better this way ;). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aberlour10 Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Who thought two weeks ago, Italy and Netherlands will fight for the last ticket to the next BB with one round to go...to see at the end that maybe France gets it.Bridge Europe goes haywire these days :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vcaramazza Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Who thought two weeks ago, Italy and Netherlands will fight for the last ticket to the next BB with one round to go...to see at the end that maybe France gets it.Bridge Europe goes haywire these days :) Thanks Mrs Lavazza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.