5-8 in the Reds

[neilkaz]

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=shkqtxxdaqjxxxxxc]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

From an adv/exp team game tonite. In 2nd seat red vs white I am dealt 13 red cards.

 

What do you open with this RED freak ?

 

.. neilkaz ..

[han]

One diamond.

[655321]

1♦

 

Second choice: 6♦

[xcurt]

RHO passed.....

 

I'll get a silly result -- 5D. I will probably allow myself to be pushed into 6D.

 

I want to open 6D but I think that's a little much and partner might raise with just the DK, while 5D...6D avoids this. I might miss a good slam but I'll bet that they have a paying save enough of the time.

[rbforster]

2♣ with game in hand. We already know what trump is - our eight card suit!

 

Edit to add: After a likely auction 2♣-2♦-4♦ setting trump, we can hope to hear partner bid his A♥ if he's got it. Added bonus - partner has to play it :P.

 

Plus opening 2♣ could keep LHO with a decent hand and spades or clubs out of the auction.

[655321]

Plus opening 2♣ could keep LHO with a decent hand and spades or clubs out of the auction.

Not sure where you play if you think opponents - at favorable, and with a lot of black cards - will respectfully pass just because you have opened 2♣.

[rbforster]

Not sure where you play if you think opponents - at favorable, and with a lot of black cards - will respectfully pass just because you have opened 2♣.

I've got 12, RHO passed maybe with 8 average. This leaves LHO with a likely distributional 10 count, give or take. If he's a little stronger than average, say something like

 

AQxxx

Jxx

x

KQxx

 

are you really going to butt in with 2♠ even at favorable? Sure maybe if you're weaker with a decent 6 card suit, but the better LHO's hand, especially the better his general defense, the less likely we're making our game and hence the less inclined he should be to make a marginal preempt. Maybe with

 

AQJxx

xxx

x

xxxx

 

you could bid 2♠ favorable hoping partner could raise you in competition and jam their auction, but with a good hand, it's not clear they can find a good spot on their own and it'd be unfortunate if the best spot happened to be 2♠X when you bid it with the first hand. 3N doesn't always make when you lead a low spade to partner's Jx what with your side entry and all. And what if you catch LHO with a good hand like:

 

AKxxx

Axx

x

KQxx

 

Now he doesn't want to bid on the first round of the auction since he can't show a good hand (and bidding would cause his partner to over-preempt when our side is likely going down). Now he might bid or double later or something, but most methods don't have a good way of showing a strong hand on the first round over 2♣ and hence our 2♣ bid bought us a whole round of bidding to ourselves after which the auction is probably at 4♦ anyway and LHO will have an even harder time of bidding (unless to double us).

[matmat]

heh

1♦ or pass

[jdonn]

My long suit!

[the hog]

Playing 3nt specifc Ace ask, I would open that, and then follow up with a specific K ask - if I have enough room. The only response that can upset me is 4NT - 2 Aces, indeterminate, now I need to ask with 5C.

 

Not playing that, as few people do, I would open 1D.

 

Never would I open 2C. Rob you ask if a 2C opener would dissuade me from overcalling 2S on

AQxxx

Jxx

x

KQxx

 

I assume this was a tongue in cheek comment; this is as obvious a 2S bid as I have seen.

[rbforster]

Are the 1♦ bidders not worried that letting the opps into the auction will allow them to potentially find their favorable sacrifice against our Vul game?

 

Sure I understand nobody's passing out 1♦ with this much shape, but what about letting them find their spade fit?

[the hog]

Sure, as the infamous Ned Kelly said as the noose tightened around his neck, "Such is life." The other possibility is a 6D opening. That might shut out their S fit. 2C won't 2C is like a red rag to a bull unless you are playing not strong opposition.

[Halo]

5♦

 

The opponents may have the black cards and I'd like to get my hand across quickly, or we may have a misfit, in which case 5♦ right now will probably work best.

 

I think freaks are a bit like preempts. A perfect result may not be possible.

[Free]

1♦ wtp

[brianshark]

1♦... and seriously, any space consuming bid like 2♣, 5♦ or 6♦ is just plain silly.

[hotShot]

1♦... and seriously, any space consuming bid like 2♣, 5♦ or 6♦ is just plain silly.

Partner won't know that I don't care about his black aces or kings.

Opps are white and have an easy sacrifice(or probably they can even make game/slam) in a black suit, if they find it.

 

So there is not much interesting information to gain from partner and a high risk that opps find what they can do.

 

So consuming bidding space is definitely not silly.

 

Playing Walsh-style openings i would open 1♥ followed by 2-6(7)♦, otherwise 5♦ seems a good choice.

[brianshark]

Partner won't know that I don't care about his black aces or kings.

Well, partner doesn't know whether his heart ace has any value either. Why don't you tell him by opening diamonds and rebidding hearts at whatever level is necessary, instead of just cutting him out of the hand altogether.

 

Opps are white and have an easy sacrifice(or probably they can even make game/slam) in a black suit, if they find it.

If partner is really broke then the opponents are going to find a bid with their 25 odd combined points and length in the black suits anyway. If partner has a few controls and they are in your suits then you could well be making 6 or 7. If partner has stuff in the black suits instead then it could easily be a big misfit deal and the opponents could go for a telephone number against your dodgy game/slam. So concluding that the opponents definitely have a profitable slam is very premature.

 

So there is not much interesting information to gain from partner and a high risk that opps find what they can do.

That's a very narrow view to take. Your not getting information out of partner, your transmitting information to him. 2-suited hands must aim to tell their partner of the 2 suits as quickly as possible because only then can partner judge to bid higher with a double fit and bid lower / double with a misfit.

 

If you simply open a large number of diamonds then partner will be the one making the last guess. Just open 1♦ and rebid hearts as high as you need to. Then partner is in a much better position.

[hotShot]

If you want to open 1♦ fine, it's just not my first choice.

It allows opps to determine how many tricks they might make and to what level a sacrifice makes sense. Opening 5♦ is forcing opps act on the 5 level and it might keep them from making the best choice.

 

You want to give partner information and make good use of the available bidding space, which is perfectly fine. But the trade off is that you give opps extra information and bidding space too, which they can use the best they can.

I think suit layout (they have the ♠) favor opps over partner, so that I "pay" more than I "get".

Edited May 9, 2008 by hotShot

[hrothgar]

We're white, they're red

 

I'm torn between 5♦ and 6♦. I would probably bid 5♦ because RHO passed and I don't expect LHO to be able to make a vulnerable 5 level overcall. 5♦ might very well buy the contract for us and make), while I expect 6♦ to be down 1 more often than not.

 

6♦ has its attractions, largely because I'm not going to feel good defending 5♠

 

I personally wouldn't open 1♦. I don't expect that there is any chance of a controlled auction and all that I'm going to do is give the opponents a chance to find a sac. I wouldn't complain if partner chose to open either 1♦, 5♦, or 6♦. I think that any of these bids could work out well (or backfire)

 

I consider 2♣ abhorrent. I can't think of a worse hand to open 2♣ than a distributional freak with longer Diamonds than Hearts and virtually no defense.

 

Anyone care to run a simulation and caculate the percentage chance that partner has two out of the three key cards (King of Diamonds, Ace of Hearts, Jack of Hearts)

[rbforster]

Anyone care to run a simulation and caculate the percentage chance that partner has two out of the three key cards (King of Diamonds, Ace of Hearts, Jack of Hearts)

Shouldn't it just be roughly a 1/3 chance for each?

 

Prob(N cards of A♥,J♥,K♦) = Choose(3,N) (1/3)^N (2/3)^(3-N) ?

 

0 30%

1 44%

2 22%

3 4%

 

I guess it should be a little more in our favor since partner and LHO have slightly more average HCP than RHO the passed hand. Hardly seems worth a simulation for this; if you want to know if they're making or saccing against 5♦/6♦ or whether you often belong in hearts instead of diamonds, now I'd be happy to hear the simulation results.

[TimG]

We're white, they're red

 

Anyone care to run a simulation and caculate the percentage chance that partner has two out of the three key cards (King of Diamonds, Ace of Hearts, Jack of Hearts)

I read the vulnerability to be: "they're white, we're red".

 

For the simulation to be useful, you'd also have to factor in suit lengths, wouldn't you? ♥xxxx ♦x is more useful than ♥Jx ♦xx, isn't it?

 

Playing with Richard, I would open 1♥ (canape) and introduce diamonds next round.

 

Interesting that a couple of people have suggested 6♦, but in a recent thread where we were faced with a 6♣ opening, no one mentioned the possibility of a 5-8 hand.

[hrothgar]

Interesting that a couple of people have suggested 6♦, but in a recent thread where we were faced with a 6♣ opening, no one mentioned the possibility of a 5-8 hand.

Yes and no...

 

Justin did mention that he would pass a 6♣ opening opposite me and I was one of the folks who gave consideration to a 6♦ opening.

[andy_h]

1D, 2nd choice 6D. Would not consider 2C

[Apollo81]

Interesting that a couple of people have suggested 6♦, but in a recent thread where we were faced with a 6♣ opening, no one mentioned the possibility of a 5-8 hand.

What thread was that? I must have missed that one.

[neilkaz]

Wow...lots of great comments and diverging opinions and styles here ! Please keep it up and in a day or so I'll tell you what happened at the table and also in the other room.

 

And, yes, my hand is 2nd seat vul vs not.

 

..neilkaz ..very pleased with the response level so far !