Onward Christian Soldier

[Winstonm]

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_9154638

[matmat]

GBA

[PassedOut]

Many folks consider atheism to be "politically incorrect" thinking to be suppressed at all costs. Too bad that honest US soldiers must suffer the consequences of that stupidity, along with all the other hardships they face.

 

I've read that the Air Force Academy is thoroughly infected with Christian evangelicals these days. Looks like that cancer has spread to the Army also.

[Winstonm]

Sorry, I did it again - thinking and typing at the same time doesn't work for me.

 

Could someone fix my spelling error and make that: Aberration...

 

Tip of the hat to Matmat.

 

Lame excuse of the day - I was thinking abhorence....but I meant aberration

[luke warm]

Many folks consider atheism to be "politically incorrect" thinking to be suppressed at all costs. Too bad that honest US soldiers must suffer the consequences of that stupidity, along with all the other hardships they face.

 

I've read that the Air Force Academy is thoroughly infected with Christian evangelicals these days. Looks like that cancer has spread to the Army also.

what cancer are you speaking of, christianity or evangelism or political correctness?

[pclayton]

I think this 'trend' has been going on for about the last 230 years.

[kenberg]

Some time back a friend was telling me that when he was in the Army he would get a pass to go off base to see an opera. With your typical sergeant it may be a close call whether atheism is a worse transgression than loving opera. "Why can't you just go into town and get laid like everyone else?"

 

Insecure people feel the need to ram their preferences and beliefs down everyone else's throat. Nothing new there. It does seem to get particularly brutal when God or sex is involved.

[matmat]

what cancer are you speaking of, christianity or evangelism or political correctness?

yes

[PassedOut]

what cancer are you speaking of, christianity or evangelism or political correctness?

The cancer that appears to be spreading is the misbehavior of the Christian evangelicals in the military, not their personal beliefs.

 

It's disturbing that officers sworn to defend our country go to such lengths to undermine the principles -- including freedom from persecution by established religions -- upon which our country was founded. No wonder that insurgents in the Middle East refer to our soldiers as "crusaders."

[luke warm]

well Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on superstition and just plain erroneous doctrine, although it pains me to see it when it happens... "end-times evangelicals" are, unfortunately, the majority these days... to argue against the authority of "left behind" or hal lindsay's books is to be branded a pagan

[PassedOut]

well Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on superstition and just plain erroneous doctrine, although it pains me to see it when it happens... "end-times evangelicals" are, unfortunately, the majority these days... to argue against the authority of "left behind" or hal lindsay's books is to be branded a pagan

No doubt about it, there is plenty of superstition and error outside of Christianity.

 

However, I'm surprised at your statement that

 

"end-times evangelicals" are, unfortunately, the majority these days...

I had thought that Roman Catholics outnumbered all the other Christian groups.

[kenberg]

well Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on superstition and just plain erroneous doctrine, although it pains me to see it when it happens... "end-times evangelicals" are, unfortunately, the majority these days... to argue against the authority of "left behind" or hal lindsay's books is to be branded a pagan

Erroneous doctrine can be an issue I suppose but I have suffered from erroneous doctrines of my own at times, so I go gentle here. The problem in the example from the original post is the bullying, in this case in the Armed Forces. I grant that some atheists can be a real pain in the ass, but most of us just call things as we see them and are happy to let others do likewise. We may even be interested in their opinions.

 

Incidentally I think I qualify as an atheist only if you force the issue. Mostly I don't regard most theological questions as very interesting. Did Jesus really walk on water? Does it matter? For some, it matters greatly and for them, I am an atheist. But there are a lot of religious people out there who turn their attention to other matters and I am as likely to agree with them about important issues as I am with a fellow atheist.

[Winstonm]

There is a difference between conspiracy and agenda: conspiracy in law is criminal behavior, yet law does not forbid a dozen girl scouts from selling cookies with the agenda of raising money.

 

The concern I have with what is happening in the military services is Agenda, not conspiracy - it is the "acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought," by evangelical Christian radicals that is the threat.

 

It is especially dangerous in an organization like the military, where civil disobedience has as much chance of being tolerated as "Bewitched" would have had of being the #1 show in Salem in the late 1700s.

[luke warm]

well Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on superstition and just plain erroneous doctrine, although it pains me to see it when it happens... "end-times evangelicals" are, unfortunately, the majority these days... to argue against the authority of "left behind" or hal lindsay's books is to be branded a pagan

No doubt about it, there is plenty of superstition and error outside of Christianity.

 

However, I'm surprised at your statement that

 

"end-times evangelicals" are, unfortunately, the majority these days...

I had thought that Roman Catholics outnumbered all the other Christian groups.

i'm not sure what the catholic church teaches, but i know a lot of catholics who believe in the left behind scenario

Erroneous doctrine can be an issue I suppose but I have suffered from erroneous doctrines of my own at times, so I go gentle here.

true, i should have added "my present doctrinal understanding"

[Codo]

I think in this small editorial you refer too is more then just one truth.

 

1. During my time on this forum I learned that sare are many scary so called christians in the US. SO no doubt, there are people in the army who treat others with disrespect if they don't believe in the same way.

 

But without knowing anything about a special case, there will be people who blame others for there gender, the colour of the skin, their body mass index or their IQ.

 

This is not new. This is sad, but human.

 

So, are there any numbers around? Are these bad christians more an issue then soldiers who blame others for being fat/black/dumb/female/redneck/from Harlem/what ever makes them different?

 

2. The editorial is no news. It is the editors personal view. And this view is what he expresses. He told us that Mister Hall told him that these things happen like they did. But Mister Halls officer disagrees. He says it was different. The editor belives Mister Hall, but why should we take him as truthworty? Maybe he is the blame kid?

Still anybody here takes this editorial in the salt lake times as fact. I don't know this newspaper, but I know that you cannot trust anything what is in the papers. So, again the question: DO you have more facts then just a single voice in Utah?

 

(The coverage of christian domination in the US Army is no big news here, so I have non, but they should exist somewhere.)

[kenberg]

i'm not sure what the catholic church teaches, but i know a lot of catholics who believe in the left behind scenario 

 

 

In violation of NCLB? Does this mean that the federal law is in violation of Church/State separation? I suppose I shouldn't joke, there is usually very little tolerance for humor on such matters.

[Winstonm]

I'm not sure but I think Catholicism believes that Rvelations were written about past events - the Emperor Nero.

 

I'm not sure if evangelical Christians understand how small of minority view it is they hold.

[pclayton]

As a Catholic I'm pretty sure we outnumber the fundamenalists in the US. However, much of the US catholic population is made up of many diverse immigrant groups, including all of Latin America, Phillippines, etc., so the political influence isn't as focused.

 

Revelation is a scary bedtime story, and many catholics do not take it very literally. I think much of the bible is purely symbolic but there is some good stuff in there. Read Proverbs sometime.

[kenberg]

As a Catholic I'm pretty sure we outnumber the fundamenalists in the US. However, much of the US catholic population is made up of many diverse immigrant groups, including all of Latin America, Phillippines, etc., so the political influence isn't as focused.

 

Revelation is a scary bedtime story, and many catholics do not take it very literally. I think much of the bible is purely symbolic but there is some good stuff in there. Read Proverbs sometime.

As mentioned above, I often find agreement with religious folks.

[luke warm]

i'm not sure what the catholic church teaches, but i know a lot of catholics who believe in the left behind scenario 

 

 

In violation of NCLB? Does this mean that the federal law is in violation of Church/State separation? I suppose I shouldn't joke, there is usually very little tolerance for humor on such matters.

well ken, i know a lot of catholics (living in louisiana as i do) and most i've spoken with aren't aware of some of their own doctrinal beliefs, for example mary as co-redemptrix... in any case, people tend to believe what they want whether it necessarily comports with doctrine or not

[Winstonm]

It's difficult to seperate a thread like this from a debate over religion, but I really don't think religion per se is the problem - the problem is intolerance.

 

The difficulty with a generally held belief that becomes a concentrated belief is that there is no room for tolerance - tolerance is simply understanding that whatever you believe to be true may be wrong, so others' views have equal weight to yours.

 

Applied to radical fundamental beliefs, tolerance becomes antipathy to the very belief itself - tolerance cannot be tolerated else the belief withers.

[barmar]

The reason this is a more serious problem in the military is that soldiers are essentially trapped. In civilian life, you don't have to put up with bullies, and you can choose who you associate with most of the time.

 

But if you're in the military, you give up most of this freedom. You live 24x7 with the people in your unit, and you're forced to deal with their prejudices. Individualism is generally suppressed -- much of boot camp is spent training people to be part of the team, subservient to the commanders. So it's hardly surprising that unit members will ostracize the ones who don't fit in.

 

Furthermore, since the US military is voluntary service, they tend to skew towards a particular personality, which emphasizes violence.

[blackshoe]

Furthermore, since the US military is voluntary service, they tend to skew towards a particular personality, which emphasizes violence.

Probably a topic for another thread, but do you have any evidence to back up this assertion?

[Al_U_Card]

It's difficult to seperate a thread like this from a debate over religion, but I really don't think religion per se is the problem - the problem is intolerance.

One nail, one head, consider it hit.

[Al_U_Card]

Furthermore, since the US military is voluntary service, they tend to skew towards a particular personality, which emphasizes violence.

Probably a topic for another thread, but do you have any evidence to back up this assertion?

This is the purpose of the exercise....to understand more about the issuer than the issue. It is clear that the distillation of his perception has resulted in an awareness of the situation. Based on the intent of the statement (ideally and hopefully to reveal as much as possible and engender a reasonable and valuable exchange) we learn more about each other as we learn about the subject matter in question.

 

We are man-made interpretation machines. Making use of this facility is one of our main higher functions. Quoting facts and numbers verbatim is okay but accept at face-value the offering and go with it. It has more importance than meets the eye.