They Preempt

[rogerclee]

IMPs, All White, Third Seat

 

♠Ax ♥KJ9xxx ♦JT ♣QJx

 

1♣ - (P) - 1♥ - (2♠)

P - (P) - ?

 

Plan?

[effervesce]

Partner is extremely likely to have a 12-14 balanced hand.

X then 3♥ is great if such a sequence is forcing (or X and bid 4♥), while 3♠ then passing p's 3NT or converting 4m to 4♥ is workable.

 

Bashing 4♥ seems a very practical bid though.

[han]

I think I have to bid 4H. Alternatively you could double and then bid 4H.

[xcurt]

IMPs, All White, Third Seat

 

♠Ax ♥KJ9xxx ♦JT ♣QJx

 

1♣ - (P) - 1♥ - (2♠)

P - (P) - ?

 

Plan?

I'll dial back a little and bid 2NT.

 

Doubling is way too scary here and will frequently endplay partner into passing. That won't be good for us very often since partner would have already hit 2S with a stack.

[Apollo81]

Double, we need more information from partner, and don't mind defending if he passes.

 

I would never bid 4♥ - cant partner have a 4045 minimum for instance?

[effervesce]

IMPs, All White, Third Seat

 

♠Ax ♥KJ9xxx ♦JT ♣QJx

 

1♣ - (P) - 1♥ - (2♠)

P - (P) - ?

 

Plan?

I'll dial back a little and bid 2NT.

 

Doubling is way too scary here and will frequently endplay partner into passing. That won't be good for us very often since partner would have already hit 2S with a stack.

Huh? If partner passes the X with Hxx or something like that in spades and doesn't bid a 4(5) card minor, 3♥ on 3 card heart support or 2NT with a spade stop I'd start finding a new partner.

[xcurt]

IMPs, All White, Third Seat

 

♠Ax ♥KJ9xxx ♦JT ♣QJx

 

1♣ - (P) - 1♥ - (2♠)

P - (P) - ?

 

Plan?

I'll dial back a little and bid 2NT.

 

Doubling is way too scary here and will frequently endplay partner into passing. That won't be good for us very often since partner would have already hit 2S with a stack.

Huh? If partner passes the X with Hxx or something like that in spades and doesn't bid a 4(5) card minor or 2NT I'd start finding a new partner.

Partner is very unlikely to have 4 diamonds. Partner already bid clubs once. Partner cannot bid 2NT with Sxxx (maybe he could with Jxx but from our side facing Jxx we have two stoppers frequently). If partner does have a very shapely hand nothing compels him to pass 2NT. What should partner do with

 

Jxx, Qxx, Kxx, AKxx (we will probably take 5-6 tricks against spades with this partner hand)

 

or

 

Kxx, Qxx, Kxx, ATxx (we might take anywhere from 4 to 6 tricks against spades with this partner hand)

 

Unless LHO is a known maniac, he isn't bidding 2S on random garbage since the inventive to preempt drops as we get bids in to describe our hands. Here he's bidding 2S into a situation where most pairs are playing penalty doubles and he's offering the opponents a free shot to put the NT in either hand. He's probably doing it because he wants to catch a raise and find a good save or two-way make in 4S over the expected 4H contract.

 

Finally, if we were playing weak NT and it went 1NT-P-?, would you Texas to 4H or do something else like show hearts and offer choice of games?

[effervesce]

IMPs, All White, Third Seat

 

♠Ax ♥KJ9xxx ♦JT ♣QJx

 

1♣ - (P) - 1♥ - (2♠)

P - (P) - ?

 

Plan?

I'll dial back a little and bid 2NT.

 

Doubling is way too scary here and will frequently endplay partner into passing. That won't be good for us very often since partner would have already hit 2S with a stack.

Huh? If partner passes the X with Hxx or something like that in spades and doesn't bid a 4(5) card minor or 2NT I'd start finding a new partner.

Partner is very unlikely to have 4 diamonds. Partner already bid clubs once. Partner cannot bid 2NT with Sxxx (maybe he could with Jxx but from our side facing Jxx we have two stoppers frequently). If partner does have a very shapely hand nothing compels him to pass 2NT. What should partner do with

 

Jxx, Qxx, Kxx, AKxx (we will probably take 5-6 tricks against spades with this partner hand)

 

or

 

Kxx, Qxx, Kxx, ATxx (we might take anywhere from 4 to 6 tricks against spades with this partner hand)

 

Unless LHO is a known maniac, he isn't bidding 2S on random garbage since the inventive to preempt drops as we get bids in to describe our hands. Here he's bidding 2S into a situation where most pairs are playing penalty doubles and he's offering the opponents a free shot to put the NT in either hand. He's probably doing it because he wants to catch a raise and find a good save or two-way make in 4S over the expected 4H contract.

 

Finally, if we were playing weak NT and it went 1NT-P-?, would you Texas to 4H or do something else like show hearts and offer choice of games?

Both of those look like routine 3♥ responses to the X. So... lets say partner has xxx of spades, <4 diamonds - lets say 3 diamonds. That's 6 cards in spades and diamonds, and therefore 7 cards in clubs and hearts. 5 card clubs = 3♣, 4 clubs 3 hearts = 3♥. Only with 4-2-3-4 shape is there a problem if partner does not have a spade stopper.

[jdonn]

Obvious double. I don't play in any partnership where partner could have doubled 2♠ for penalty so if he passes that's great, if he does anything else I might have a tough decision between 3♥, 3NT, maybe 4♥, etc but I'll deal with that next round if I have to.

[Guest Jlall]

How is this hard? If you X and then bid 3H that is obviously forcing since you didn't bid 3H. It also shows 6+H since partner can't have 3H (no 3H bid over your X). Isn't that just like a perfect sequence? Then if partner bids 3S you can give him 3N, if he bids 3N you can pass, if he bids 4H thats great. I mean we may be a little too high but I don't understand the desire to bid 4H directly???? We're just giving up on an intelligent auction?

 

Is it just that people don't know/think that X then 3H is forcing or what? This should be a non problem.

[gnasher]

Obvious double. I don't play in any partnership where partner could have doubled 2♠ for penalty

 

How is this hard? If you X and then bid 3H that is obviously forcing since you didn't bid 3H.

Me too.

[whereagles]

Dbl. A shot at 4♥ can very well find pard with a 4135 and you go down for no good reason.

[benlessard]

Easy X. I don't think game will be that good but we are in Imps.

[xcurt]

IMPs, All White, Third Seat

 

♠Ax ♥KJ9xxx ♦JT ♣QJx

 

1♣ - (P) - 1♥ - (2♠)

P - (P) - ?

 

Plan?

I'll dial back a little and bid 2NT.

 

Doubling is way too scary here and will frequently endplay partner into passing. That won't be good for us very often since partner would have already hit 2S with a stack.

Huh? If partner passes the X with Hxx or something like that in spades and doesn't bid a 4(5) card minor or 2NT I'd start finding a new partner.

Partner is very unlikely to have 4 diamonds. Partner already bid clubs once. Partner cannot bid 2NT with Sxxx (maybe he could with Jxx but from our side facing Jxx we have two stoppers frequently). If partner does have a very shapely hand nothing compels him to pass 2NT. What should partner do with

 

Jxx, Qxx, Kxx, AKxx (we will probably take 5-6 tricks against spades with this partner hand)

 

or

 

Kxx, Qxx, Kxx, ATxx (we might take anywhere from 4 to 6 tricks against spades with this partner hand)

 

Unless LHO is a known maniac, he isn't bidding 2S on random garbage since the inventive to preempt drops as we get bids in to describe our hands. Here he's bidding 2S into a situation where most pairs are playing penalty doubles and he's offering the opponents a free shot to put the NT in either hand. He's probably doing it because he wants to catch a raise and find a good save or two-way make in 4S over the expected 4H contract.

 

Finally, if we were playing weak NT and it went 1NT-P-?, would you Texas to 4H or do something else like show hearts and offer choice of games?

Both of those look like routine 3♥ responses to the X. So... lets say partner has xxx of spades, <4 diamonds - lets say 3 diamonds. That's 6 cards in spades and diamonds, and therefore 7 cards in clubs and hearts. 5 card clubs = 3♣, 4 clubs 3 hearts = 3♥. Only with 4-2-3-4 shape is there a problem if partner does not have a spade stopper.

You're arguing that responder's double of 2S shows 5+H and 3+C and is pure takeout (if it doesn't promise 3+ C, anytime partner has 3235 shape we cannot guarantee we reach an 8-card fit). Even so, if we have the first example hand, Jxx, Qxx, Kxx, AKxx, and responder has, say, Qx, K9xxx, Axx, Jxx, aren't we favorites to be -2 in 3H, and +1 in 2S. And if partner is a little better and raises 3H to 4H RHO might double and collect the same -2, this time it's 300 whenever RHO has HAJTx. And wouldn't we have bid 1H and not 1D when we have xxx, AKxx, xxxx, Ax? What should that hand bid when 2S comes back to it?

 

If we agreed that the x is pure takeout, then I agree 100% with previous poster that Dble...3H is much better than bidding 4H directly.

 

And for those not playing Dble of 2S is penalty, what is Dble? Support? This is going to create a problem if you're also playing Walsh-ish and responder could have a 3442 7-count.

 

This situation feels like a good time to reduce the risk level. The possible outcomes after Double seem to be

 

2Sx -- either a small win or a disaster (maybe partner's pass would be an error but we're giving partner a chance to make a very costly error so we need some upside to compensate).

 

we get to 3NT from our side anyway -- same as if I bid 2NT now but we can't stop in

2NT facing a bad minimum.

 

we get to 3NT from partner's side -- probably worse than from our side (it might be better if LHO is waiting to lead a diamond and they can run 5 diamond tricks and RHO would just lead a spade).

 

we get to 4H -- if partner has a weak NT, this is probably so-so, and if partner has a really good hand for hearts with 3 hearts he would bid 3H over 2NT whenever he continues

 

2NT will get us to:

 

2NT -- Might go down but if partner passes everything else rates to be a minus score too. At least I will get a small minus score.

 

3NT -- Probably only going to be wrong when partner has xxx, Qx(x) in the majors and LHO has an ace. Might win the board vs 4H eg xxx, AQx, Kxx, Axxx (doublers are hearing 3H and raising to 4 facing this, 3NT makes when the DA is with RHO or the CK is onside, 4H makes when we guess diamonds).

 

4H -- We are probably better placed than the doublers here since we won't get to 4H unless we have extras

[jdonn]

2Sx -- either a small win or a disaster

or a huge win?!?

[pclayton]

I double. I didn't realize that a subsequent 3♥ was forcing, but it makes sense.

[gnasher]

And for those not playing Dble of 2S is penalty, what is Dble?

It's for takeout.

[neilkaz]

How is this hard? If you X and then bid 3H that is obviously forcing since you didn't bid 3H. It also shows 6+H since partner can't have 3H (no 3H bid over your X). Isn't that just like a perfect sequence? Then if partner bids 3S you can give him 3N, if he bids 3N you can pass, if he bids 4H thats great. I mean we may be a little too high but I don't understand the desire to bid 4H directly???? We're just giving up on an intelligent auction?

 

Is it just that people don't know/think that X then 3H is forcing or what? This should be a non problem.

Agreed...direct 3♥ competing and NF, double then 3♥ Forcing.

[dcvetkov]

Agree with double and will be expert winning choice, some problems maybe in undiscussed prtnrship? It is not maybe clear takeout, but it is one of those " do something intelligent please"

 

Should convey message like this

1) Partner, we have majority of the power, but not sure what is the best contract

2) I probably have 5+ hearts and short spades and failry balanced hand.

3) I dont mind too much if you pass dbl, but better have 4 trumps, and they should be good;) ( Double could work wonders where p has 4 trumps and singleton ♥)

 

Incidently, what would be X by opener immediately after 2♠? Penalty stack, suggesting defence? Two way double ( Either takeout with singleton spade, or trump stack with 4?) So his pass denies any of these hands?

[jdonn]

I don't understand why everyone thinks the double must be 5+ hearts. 2443? 3433? 3442? What do you do if you have those shapes and invitational strength so a cuebid is not an option, but spades unstopped? Or gf where you could always cuebid next round but are happy if partner passes the double?

[neilkaz]

I don't understand why everyone thinks the double must be 5+ hearts. 2443? 3433? 3442? What do you do if you have those shapes and invitational strength so a cuebid is not an option, but spades unstopped? Or gf where you could always cuebid next round but are happy if partner passes the double?

Double certainly doesn't show 5+♥ but doubling and then bidding them does.

[gnasher]

I don't think that the double promises five hearts. After the double, I'd play 2NT by opener as scrambling, though that won't always help.

[han]

I double. I didn't realize that a subsequent 3♥ was forcing, but it makes sense.

Yeah I was actually thinking about it before I posted and didn't realize it either. Hope some people I play with read this thread so that they won't pass when I do it at the table.

[Guest Jlall]

Direct X of 2S would be takeout (and promise extra values). What else could one do with a 1345 16 count etc.

[dcvetkov]

Direct X of 2S would be takeout (and promise extra values). What else could one do with a 1345 16 count etc.

Actually, I just realized I made mistake in my post;)

 

Direct dbl is support , isnt it? ( Assuming it is on the card). If not agreed, then agree, its takeout. Read somewhere though , I think from E. Kantar, suggestion two way double , either takeout, singleton, or penalty stack with 4 trumps. Partner should suppose to deduce ( guess?) which one is more likely. This mostly applies after 1NT responce by responder.