Responding with weak hand 5/5 fit

[jillybean]

Dealer: West Vul: None Scoring: IMP ♠ QT92 ♥ 98752 ♦ 7 ♣ A82

 

West North East South

 

 Pass  1♥    Pass  ? 

[babalu1997]

If you are playing preemptive raises, 4H.

 

If not playing premptive raises , 2H.

 

You have but one bid, the rest is partner's problem, let him bid slam if he wants.

 

Even of he has a spade reverse, it would be better to play with the weaker suit as trump.

[P_Marlowe]

4H.

 

#1 Playing sound opening bids, you should

have a fair chance of making.

 

#2 If you happen to play a forcing raise of

the mayor (2NT), a 4H bid is weak.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[effervesce]

4♥. I don't think any bidding system plays 1♥ - 4♥ as showing much strength other than a large heart fit.

[rogerclee]

4♥. I don't think any bidding system plays 1♥ - 4♥ as showing much strength other than a large heart fit.

Uhhh, strong club? :)

 

Anyway agree, 4♥.

[jillybean]

Great, a unanimous result 4♥ it is.

 

Now how about this hand?

 

Dealer: West Vul: NS Scoring: IMP ♠ 85 ♥ KJ3 ♦ Q54 ♣ KQ965

 

West North East South

 

 Pass  1♥    Pass  ?

[rogerclee]

Great, a unanimous result 4♥ it is.

 

Now how about this hand?

 

Dealer: West Vul: NS Scoring: IMP ♠ 85 ♥ KJ3 ♦ Q54 ♣ KQ965  

 

West  North East  South

 

 Pass  1♥    Pass  ?

The hand is invitational with hearts, however I do that in my system (if I can show clubs along the way with SAYC, awesome).

[han]

Yes, the first is a preemptive raise to 4H, the second is a limit raise. Make the hand a little stronger and we have a forcing raise.

[jillybean]

Thanks, on this last hand the bidding went 1♥ 4♥ , I was wondering where the line was between preemptive, limit and forcing.

[cherdano]

Never make a preemptive raise with 3-card support (and only very rarely with 4-card support -- maybe with 4-card support and a void).

[Guest Jlall]

Never make a preemptive raise with 3-card support (and only very rarely with 4-card support -- maybe with 4-card support and a void).

Or 6-4.

[P_Marlowe]

Thanks, on this last hand the bidding went 1♥ 4♥ , I was wondering where the line was between preemptive, limit and forcing was.

The follwoing outlines the purpose of the different

raises, and those purposes will help you to draw

the line.

 

A preemptive raise is a two way shot.

You either say, we make it, than it will be fine,

or you we dont, because partner did open light,

but than you hope that the raise will stop them

from bidding their own making game.

The last scenario is important, if we own hears,

and they may or may not own spades.

 

A limit raise is a hand, where you have a certain

amount of strength in your own hand, which gurantees

that your owns more than half of the deck (by a fair

margin), i.e. it is fairly unlikely that they will be able

to make game.

Now shooting game is no longer a two way shot, it

risks turning a plus score in a minus score.

So you try to reach game in a constructive way.

 

A forcing raise is a hand, which makes it fairly likely

that we can make game. In this scenario you cater

for opening hands, which are better than min, because

than you will have a reasonable chance to make a

slam.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[ArtK78]

4♥. I don't think any bidding system plays 1♥ - 4♥ as showing much strength other than a large heart fit.

You haven't played in too many pair events on BBO, have you?

 

:)

[Guest movingon]

Playing 2/1 I would bid a forcing 1nt and then 4 hearts on the next bid

[manudude03]

clear 4H for me on the first regardless of system (provided its a natural system). 1N followed by 4H will land you in slam when partner has a big hand (Ax AKJxx ATxx Qx for one).

 

As for the second hand, I prefer 2C followed by the cheapest heart bid I can get (or 4H if partner shows any extras) or 1NT followed by 3H in 2/1. Even in limit raise auctions, I like to be able to differentiate between 3 and 4 card support, but accept that the standard in SAYC is 3 card support.

[the hog]

First hand 4H regardless of what sort of raises you are playing, second hand limit raise

[neilkaz]

4♥. I don't think any bidding system plays 1♥ - 4♥ as showing much strength other than a large heart fit.

You haven't played in too many pair events on BBO, have you?

 

;)

Yes with pickups just guess what they mean by 1♥ 4♥ but for many that don't play J2NT it is just a min GF and/or could be preemptive.

 

Good luck guessing if you have a big hand.

[neilkaz]

Yes, the first is a preemptive raise to 4H, the second is a limit raise. Make the hand a little stronger and we have a forcing raise.

Yes indeed !

[Mbodell]

I guess I'll stick my neck out and go against the majority and bid 3♥ on the first bid with many of my regular partners. I'll bid 4♥ on some preemptive hands but here that seems unnecessary as the following are all working in my favor suggesting opponents don't have game:

 

1. Both opponents passed.

2. I have control of the spade suit making 4♠ unlikely to make.

 

Things working in my favor against partner getting too slam curious when it fails:

 

1. I have an 8 LTC hand in support of hearts which is about the strength for a limit raise.

2. Partner didn't open 2♣.

 

All of this depends on your partners style of opening 2♣, accepting limit raises, and investigating slams. But I think I'll see enough 3♥= versus the 4♥-1 to make up for the occasional 5♥-1 versus 4♥= and 3♥+1 versus 4♥=. Switch the diamonds and spades and make partner a 1st seat opener and I'll bid 4♥ in a heartbeat.

 

On the second one I bid 2♣ in SA and 2♣ in 2/1 planning on bidding 4♥ next as I expect to make a heart game opposite a minimum 2nd seat opener.

[Cascade]

4♥. I don't think any bidding system plays 1♥ - 4♥ as showing much strength other than a large heart fit.

I would guess most learners are taught that 1Maj 4Maj is game values with support. I have certainly seen it in many complete beginner texts.

[P_Marlowe]

4♥. I don't think any bidding system plays 1♥ - 4♥ as showing much strength other than a large heart fit.

I would guess most learners are taught that 1Maj 4Maj is game values with support. I have certainly seen it in many complete beginner texts.

Yes, ... I have done it myself, and would do so again.

 

And I believe, that it is a whole lot better, than the alternative

... throwing another convention at them before they even have

a firm grip on Stayman / Transfer.

 

Forcing raises are only important for slam bidding.

... and this can wait, but I remember darkly, that there was some

controversy regarding this view.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[effervesce]

4♥. I don't think any bidding system plays 1♥ - 4♥ as showing much strength other than a large heart fit.

I would guess most learners are taught that 1Maj 4Maj is game values with support. I have certainly seen it in many complete beginner texts.

Yes, ... I have done it myself, and would do so again.

 

And I believe, that it is a whole lot better, than the alternative

... throwing another convention at them before they even have

a firm grip on Stayman / Transfer.

 

Forcing raises are only important for slam bidding.

... and this can wait, but I remember darkly, that there was some

controversy regarding this view.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

I've never liked being patronized when being taught. I don't know about others, but I'd prefer to be taught properly from the start then be taught wrongly. I guess it depends on the person. For people who play just for fun, sure. But I've always preferred the intellectual challenge as being a major part.

 

Then again, I am a person who finds it easy to learn stuff just by reading. I learnt to play bridge just by reading and then playing online >_>

[P_Marlowe]

4♥. I don't think any bidding system plays 1♥ - 4♥ as showing much strength other than a large heart fit.

I would guess most learners are taught that 1Maj 4Maj is game values with support. I have certainly seen it in many complete beginner texts.

Yes, ... I have done it myself, and would do so again.

 

And I believe, that it is a whole lot better, than the alternative

... throwing another convention at them before they even have

a firm grip on Stayman / Transfer.

 

Forcing raises are only important for slam bidding.

... and this can wait, but I remember darkly, that there was some

controversy regarding this view.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

I've never liked being patronized when being taught. I don't know about others, but I'd prefer to be taught properly from the start then be taught wrongly. I guess it depends on the person. For people who play just for fun, sure. But I've always preferred the intellectual challenge as being a major part.

 

Then again, I am a person who finds it easy to learn stuff just by reading. I learnt to play bridge just by reading and then playing online >_>

.... I try not to paronize, in fact I try to encourage

to make concious decision.

 

But I also firmly believe that it is important to have

a firm understanding of what you are playing / doing.

 

Playing 1H - 4H as a strong raise is not wrong, you

can explain it fairly simple:

4H shows a hand, which is strong enough to give the

partnership a fair chance of making 10 tricks.

And it will also enable you bid slams which are on

because of enough HCP power.

 

Of course there is room to improve.

 

Now imagine, how would you explaing the logic behind

a preemptive raise?

It involves two-way shot, and you may even need to bring

in the Law of Total Tricks to explain the Logic.

 

If you start learning to read, you dont start with the original

version of Shakespeares texts (or in German with

Walter von der Vogelweide ... 400 years older than

Shakespeare), you start with?

 

It is a steady path, starting with class 1, but if you dont

understand the stuff, which got taught in class 1, you

will fail.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[elwood913]

Hi,

 

Why do most people think hand #2 is a limit raise? It looks like a forcing raise to me.

Isn't it 11 good HCP? (Ok it has no aces, but the other honors are reasonable to good.) Can't I add 1 point for my nice 5-card ♣ suit and another for the ♠ dblton? Looks to me like I have 13 points with nice 3-card support and will make a forcing raise. What's wrong with my analysis?

 

Thanks,

Bill

[han]

It would be extremele rare for me to force to game with an aceless 2335 11-count. Throw in 4 10's and I still wouldn't.