is this a simple 1NT-5NT-7NT hand?

[sceptic]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=st5h76dqjt643cjt6&w=sak32ha83dk9ca832&e=sqj86hkjt2da2ckq5&s=s974hq954d875c974]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

- - 1NT Pass

4NT Pass Pass Pass

 

or would 1NT - 5NT - 6NT be better

[jchiu]

Playing strong and five, I'd probably bid Stayman and worry about my real call when partner bids 2♥. Ideally, I would like to agree spades, keycard, then signoff in 6♠.

[Flame]

Go back to your first bridge course and check how many points you need for NT slams. I rember 33 for small slam 37 for big slam. you have 18 partner opened 15-17, so the combine is 33-35 and therfore you must bid 6NT not 5NT.

This is if you skip stayman.

[whereagles]

it's 36 for a grand

[EricK]

This looks like a "1NT, 6NT, well played partner." sort of hand to me.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Stayman is certainly fine, if you want to

go looking for a grand.

 

Partially it depends on your methods, if

you are able to create a gameforcing

sequence below 4H / 4S after you have

found a mayor suit fit, it makes certainly

sense to go via Stayman, if you are not

able to do it, bid 6NT direct.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Guest Jlall]

definitely bid stayman, not hard to imagine spades playing a trick better.

[EricK]

definitely bid stayman, not hard to imagine spades playing a trick better.

Maybe you should bid 2♣ here. But only if you and your partner are guaranteed to be on the same page in every follow up auction.

 

Except in the case of partnerships with very clear agreements, I expect the probability of missing slam altogether, or getting to the wrong slam to easily outweigh the probability of getting to a making grand slam in one of responder's suits.

[Guest Jlall]

definitely bid stayman, not hard to imagine spades playing a trick better.

Maybe you should bid 2♣ here. But only if you and your partner are guaranteed to be on the same page in every follow up auction.

 

Except in the case of partnerships with very clear agreements, I expect the probability of missing slam altogether, or getting to the wrong slam to easily outweigh the probability of getting to a making grand slam in one of responder's suits.

Who said anything about grand slam?

 

How about this for an idea: If you find a 4-4 spade fit bid 6S, otherwise bid 6N. That way you get to 6S when you have a fit and 6N when you don't which imo is a clear improvement over always playing 6N.

[Flame]

it's 36 for a grand

i did some google search and its seems that its still 37 as it was more then 20 years ago when i learned it.

[keylime]

Bid Stayman, then 5NT for choice of slams. If you really got a grand hand, you're breaking out the baby food convention (today's flavor is peas and carrots).

[neilkaz]

it's 36 for a grand

It's only 36 when missing an ace !!

[EricK]

definitely bid stayman, not hard to imagine spades playing a trick better.

Maybe you should bid 2♣ here. But only if you and your partner are guaranteed to be on the same page in every follow up auction.

 

Except in the case of partnerships with very clear agreements, I expect the probability of missing slam altogether, or getting to the wrong slam to easily outweigh the probability of getting to a making grand slam in one of responder's suits.

Who said anything about grand slam?

 

How about this for an idea: If you find a 4-4 spade fit bid 6S, otherwise bid 6N. That way you get to 6S when you have a fit and 6N when you don't which imo is a clear improvement over always playing 6N.

If the bidding starts 1NT 2♣ 2♥ I still doubt that too many partnerships are 100% sure how to find the 4-4 spade fit without "accidentally" stopping in game and generating another "who's to blame" post.

 

Even if the bidding goess 1NT 2♣ 2♠ etc, I'm not certain that, in practice, 6♠ will outperform a direct 6NT. Do the hands where we get a ruff for our twelfth trick compensate for the hands where the opponents get a ruff or where we have two unavoidable trump losers but twelve tricks elsewhere? And that doesn't take into account the poosibility for 4th hand to make a lead directional call over 2♣, or that the lead over 1NT 6NT is generally harder than over a more revealing sequence.

[neilkaz]

OK assuming 1NT is 15-17, a quant 4NT shows 16-17 looking for 33 HCP for the slam. Opener passes with a min and bids 6NT with a max (for this discussion I am ignoring getting to a minor suit slam). With exactly 16, opener can bid 5NT, getting to 6NT if responder has 17, and playing a 32 HCP 5NT if he has 16. (5NT is a "fun" contract, but usually makes with 16 across from 16, but isn't so fun when 6NT is cold) As each side may stretch a bit with a close to running 5 card suit, some pairs when accepting the quant invite respond by answering aces, just to make sure they're not in a 32 HCP slam of two aces. Other may respond with a 5 card minor just incase 6m is better than 6NT....

 

.. but anyhow..5NT is used to ask for 7NT which requires 37 HCP combined. So you need 20 or even 21 HCP.

 

The given hand is a routine 18 count and either just bid 6NT or use Stayman looking for a 4-4♠ fit first if you want.

 

Personally with this flat 18 opposite 15-17 I just bid 6NT and let the opps defend with no info. Even if I Stayman and PD responds 2♠ I don't expect a grand very often nor to be able to bid one if the odds favor it, and I risk having two trump losers but 12 tricks elsewhere on a bad day, or some freak quick ruff (really dark day)

[gnasher]

it's 36 for a grand

i did some google search and its seems that its still 37 as it was more then 20 years ago when i learned it.

Actually it's 13, the number of tricks you make being rather more important than the number of points you have.

[cherdano]

Responder has EIGHT controls and 4432 shape with a Kx doubleton, no intermediates. I really think this is an obvious stayman bid.

[Controls -> they are less likely to be able to ruff, no intermediates -> partner's hoped for doubleton is more likely generate an extra trick with a ruff, etc.]

[Flameous]

MP I bid direct 6NT cause I expect same amount of tricks in major suit game. At imps I'll take the stayman route cause grand might be on on a good day and I think it must be really dark day too to make 6NT but not make 6♠

[TimG]

Playing strong and five, I'd probably bid Stayman and worry about my real call when partner bids 2♥. Ideally, I would like to agree spades, keycard, then signoff in 6♠.

I'm a little confused: why would you use keycard when you are missing a single keycard and then signoff in 6♠ when partner shows up with the missing keycard?

[Free]

1NT - 2♣

2♥ - 5NT

6♠

[dcvetkov]

1NT - 2♣

2♥ - 5NT

6♠

This is very plausable and probably best, but as someone said, partnership can hit some rough patch if undiscussed. At Matchpoints, 6NT is really tempting, and given we have 33 hcp, most of the time will take same number of tricks as 6♠.

[ArtK78]

I don't understand.

 

To me, the 5NT bid over 2♥ is a grand slam force in hearts. Why would it be anything else?

 

Even if it was intended that 5NT be a quantitative grand slam try, the hand in question is not strong enough. You will be off 5 HCP opposite a maximum 1NT opening bid, and 5 HCP sometimes comes in the form of an ace and a jack. Aces have an annoying habit of being able to take a trick on defense, so bidding a grand is not exactly an odds-on proposition.

 

I don't object to trying to find a suit fit on this hand, and then trying to determine if the fit and controls merit a suit grand slam. But bidding a no trump grand on a maximum of 35 HCP without a long running suit and with no assurance that the partnership has all of the aces is reckless at best, suicidal at worst.

[TimG]

I don't understand.

 

To me, the 5NT bid over 2♥ is a grand slam force in hearts. Why would it be anything else?

What kind of responding hand would be concerned about only the high trump honors?

 

How do you show 4S on the way to 6N?

[TylerE]

Frankly, the more I think about it the more I think GSF is a utterly pointless convention on NT auctions, and that 5NT as pick-a-slam is much more useful. Any sort of modern response structure will give you some way to set trumps and ask for keycards (Kickback, 4♣ keycard G---er, that sort of thing), so there is never anything that GSF will tell you that you can't find out on your own. However, a pick-a-slam bid to make the final spot a mutual decision is a very useful thing that is near impossible to do otherwise.

[neilkaz]

I don't understand.

 

To me, the 5NT bid over 2♥ is a grand slam force in hearts.  Why would it be anything else?

What kind of responding hand would be concerned about only the high trump honors?

 

How do you show 4S on the way to 6N?

In these modern days of RKCB isn't GSF basically superfluous ? My interpretation of 5NT would've been Quant. looking for a Grand and lacking 4♥!

 

ie 20-21 HCP balanced and with 4♠.

 

Pick a slam does make more sense, although we can certainly explore for one over 2♥ with forcing bids.

[Free]

I don't understand.

 

To me, the 5NT bid over 2♥ is a grand slam force in hearts. Why would it be anything else?

 

Even if it was intended that 5NT be a quantitative grand slam try, the hand in question is not strong enough. You will be off 5 HCP opposite a maximum 1NT opening bid, and 5 HCP sometimes comes in the form of an ace and a jack. Aces have an annoying habit of being able to take a trick on defense, so bidding a grand is not exactly an odds-on proposition.

 

I don't object to trying to find a suit fit on this hand, and then trying to determine if the fit and controls merit a suit grand slam. But bidding a no trump grand on a maximum of 35 HCP without a long running suit and with no assurance that the partnership has all of the aces is reckless at best, suicidal at worst.

5NT is pick a slam. Basically it denies a ♥ fit and shows 4♠. There are enough ways to show a strong hand with ♥ fit so GSF is useless. Quant is useless to, because 4NT is quant.