Do you or don't you?

[louisg]

[hv=d=w&v=b&s=sxxxhktxxxxdacjtx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

12 board team match, all experts

 

Auction:

 

1C Dbl 2C 4H

5C 5H Pass ?

[Guest Jlall]

I pass, partner could just be taking a shot with like a club void and 4 hearts and a 9 count or w/e. We have shown our hand let's not break discipline now.

[655321]

6♥

 

Opposite AKxx Axxx xxxx x we have 11 tricks, and this is not a 5♥ bid.

Partner has a club void and a good hand, or (less likely) a singleton club and a very good hand.

 

So, 6♥ (7 might be cold, but even if it is, we can't find it) because 5♥ is a serious bid, it doesn't show a normal takeout double that hoped to make 4♥.

[jdonn]

Very easy pass. Even if 6♥ could possibly make it's a total shot in the dark and very undisciplined. How much less than this are we supposed to have been able to bid 4♥ with?

[louisg]

Very easy pass. Even if 6♥ could possibly make it's a total shot in the dark and very undisciplined. How much less than this are we supposed to have been able to bid 4♥ with?

 

How about xxx KTxxxx x Axx? Given that we are now pretty sure that partner has a club void (they figure to be 6-4 on everyone's bidding), isn't this hand a full trick worse than the actual one?

 

I pass, partner could just be taking a shot with like a club void and 4 hearts and a 9 count or w/e. We have shown our hand let's not break discipline now.

 

Wouldn't "taking a shot with like a club void and 4 hearts and a 9 count" be breaking discipline? This isn't a forcing pass situation, so partner should be passing with a minimum double, shouldn't he?

 

Believe me, I'm not claiming that it's clear to bid on here (that's why I posted), but these arguments haven't convinced me.

[Guest Jlall]

Very easy pass. Even if 6♥ could possibly make it's a total shot in the dark and very undisciplined. How much less than this are we supposed to have been able to bid 4♥ with?

 

How about xxx KTxxxx x Axx? Given that we are now pretty sure that partner has a club void (they figure to be 6-4 on everyone's bidding), isn't this hand a full trick worse than the actual one?

 

I pass, partner could just be taking a shot with like a club void and 4 hearts and a 9 count or w/e. We have shown our hand let's not break discipline now.

 

Wouldn't "taking a shot with like a club void and 4 hearts and a 9 count" be breaking discipline? This isn't a forcing pass situation, so partner should be passing with a minimum double, shouldn't he?

 

Believe me, I'm not claiming that it's clear to bid on here (that's why I posted), but these arguments haven't convinced me.

Partner has limited their hand. If you have a minimum hand with a club void and 4 hearts why would you consider it undisciplined to bid? You're not trying for slam and partner should never be bidding again, so you're not going to mislead them. You're simply trying to take a good save or make 5H.

 

edit: Or are you implying that 5H is some kind of slam invite/shows extras or something? I don't get it.

[louisg]

Or are you implying that 5H is some kind of slam invite/shows extras or something? I don't get it.

 

Yes, I'm definitely implying that 5H shows extras. In fact, I'm not just implying it :)

This isn't a forcing pass situation, so partner should be passing with a minimum double, shouldn't he?

[Guest Jlall]

Or are you implying that 5H is some kind of slam invite/shows extras or something? I don't get it.

 

Yes, I'm definitely implying that 5H shows extras. In fact, I'm not just implying it :)

This isn't a forcing pass situation, so partner should be passing with a minimum double, shouldn't he?

Ok, I don't agree with this. I don't see how competing to the 5 level opposite a limited partner can show extras when it is not a slam try. Obviously if you think this bid is a slam try then you should bid slam, but being able to just compete to the 5 level seems like a far more important thing to be able to do. To me this is like thinking the auction 2H 4S 5H shows extras since you can pass with a minimum, that obviously isn't always true.

[benlessard]

Bidding 5H dont suggest slam at all. It suggest that 5H might make or be a cheap save. I think the correct bid is pass but bidding 6H is probably a fair gamble.

 

Decent opponents will often smell the void and lead spades so we might easily lose 2-3 spades right from the start

 

We are playing the hand so partner K♠ isnt protected

[MFA]

With a club void and 4 decent hearts, partner will take the push even with a dead minimum as a two-way shot. Although our hand looks promising and slam easily could be on, I think that there are too many holes to bid an undisciplined 6♥.

[kfay]

me don't

[ewj]

Easy pass

[helene_t]

The only call that exists in this position is pass IMHO. If 5♥ was a slam invite, then how is p supposed to express a desire to compete to the 5-level?

[gnasher]

The only call that exists in this position is pass IMHO.

Aren't you allowed to reevaluate your hand in the light of further bidding? I'm not saying that you should necessarily do so here (although it's quite tempting), but I don't like the principle that having limited my hand I'm not then allowed to change my mind about its value.

[TimG]

The only call that exists in this position is pass IMHO.

Aren't you allowed to reevaluate your hand in the light of further bidding? I'm not saying that you should necessarily do so here (although it's quite tempting), but I don't like the principle that having limited my hand I'm not then allowed to change my mind about its value.

But, this is sort of a case of 1N-4H (transfer)-think. Responder had ways of showing a hand that had a whiff of slam interest -- it's not for opener to re-evaluate here.

 

Now, I admit that the auction in question is not an identical situation, but it is similar. While "never" may not be right, it seems that bidding on should be a very rare choice. "Only call" may have been an overbid, but not by much.

[gnasher]

I don't think the comparison with 1N-4♥ particularly apt. In the given situation, you need a perfect minimum (KQJx AJxx xxxxx -) to make slam cold, and partner had very little space to express gradations of interest. That would not be the case after a 1NT opening and an attempted signoff in game, because responder started with plenty of space and various options, but declined to use any of them.

[Free]

Do you or don't you do what? :) Pass! wtp

[neilkaz]

Pass ! PD is most likely bidding 5♥ as a two way shot. Maybe it makes, maybe it is a good save if 5♣ makes.

 

I basically bid my offensive values the first time. Noting that my playing strength for 4♥ is based on length and some HCP rather than decent (11-12 HCP) and less length, shouldn't make me think we have a magic slam and also makes me think that PD's 5♥ is more likely to be a two way shot.

 

Perhaps the opps are doubling 5♥...if we bid 6♥ and they had any thoughts about doubling 5♥, we will get whacked. Then...I expect to lose a couple of things..

 

1) More IMPs (perhaps loads more if we take 11 tricks in 6♥x)

 

2) PD's confidence and perhaps PD

 

3) Two teammates.

 

Clear pass to me .. neilkaz ..

[han]

Here we go again, instead of thinking about which call has the best expected value we worry about what partner and teammates will do if we choose wrongly. If you really need to worry about that then perhaps it is time you find new people to play with.

[Apollo81]

This is very simple. We have our bid. Partner did not invite us to bid more. Therefore there's no reason to bid further.

[louisg]

This is very simple. We have our bid. Partner did not invite us to bid more. Therefore there's no reason to bid further.

 

If partner had wanted to invite us to bid more, how could he have done so? If your answer is 5D, imagine a similar auction where our suits are touching.

[jdonn]

This is very simple. We have our bid. Partner did not invite us to bid more. Therefore there's no reason to bid further.

 

If partner had wanted to invite us to bid more, how could he have done so? If your answer is 5D, imagine a similar auction where our suits are touching.

He can't. Unless you are going to do some artificial thing involving pass and double (which would mean make the auction forcing - clearly not standard) he has one bid to do two things. Bid 5♥ when he doesn't want you to bid on (maybe to make, maybe as a save, maybe to push them higher he hopes), or invite slam. It is so easy to tell how much less useful inviting slam is opposite as well defined of a bid as 4♥ than just bidding 5♥ for all the other reasons combined when he doesn't want us to bid on, especially considering the slam invite would be completely vague and doesn't convey specific or useful information.

 

The way to think about this is that partner is often taking a chance with bids like this. If he has to worry about you hanging him, he loses his ability to use his fine judgment and take a chance because it just gives him a choice between defending 5♣ or playing 6♥. This is still a wtp.

[louisg]

as well defined of a bid as 4♥

 

This seems to be the crux of the issue. Is 4H such a well defined bid in this auction (comparable to an opening 1NT or a weak 2, as others have suggested) that partner is in complete control of the auction? I think in practice we all recognize that 4H might be bid with a reasonably wide variety of hands. Would it not be reasonable to assume that the 4H bidder can reopen with a double to say "4H was not purely preemptive, so now you can bid on if you like", and by so doing allow doubler's direct 5H bid to be more of a constructive effort? I take it from most of the comments here that this approach is not considered standard, but why not? Certainly the doubler's hand is unlimited, and there is considerable value in giving him an opportunity to better define his range.

 

One more point: I don't think I would characterize my view of 5H as "a slam try", but I don't understand the eagerness to bid 5H as a save when the opponents were forced to guess at the 5 level and partner might hold some defensive values. I would say therefore that 5H was bid with the expectation of making it, and partner should be free to act again opposite such a hand.

[neilkaz]

Here we go again, instead of thinking about which call has the best expected value we worry about what partner and teammates will do if we choose wrongly. If you really need to worry about that then perhaps it is time you find new people to play with.

Well.. I hope my post implied that I felt passing has the highest expected value by far, and tried to indicate that with my poor comical attempts after what I felt was a decent explanation and agreeing with nearly everyone else here to pass.

 

This is a WTP pass for me as it seems to be for some others. I dislike using that WTP term as it can be insulting to the OP who obviously had some real concern that bidding slam was best, while I seriously doubt there's more than 20 or 25% chance that PD holds just what I need to make it. If slam is considerably better than that, then I will have learned something here.

 

One thing, however, is that if I continually make a clear majority of incorrect high level competitive decisions in expert team games, my pard and teammates who enjoy winning as much as I do, may reevalute whether I should be playing with them.

[cherdano]

Very easy pass. Even if 6♥ could possibly make it's a total shot in the dark and very undisciplined. How much less than this are we supposed to have been able to bid 4♥ with?

 

How about xxx KTxxxx x Axx? Given that we are now pretty sure that partner has a club void (they figure to be 6-4 on everyone's bidding), isn't this hand a full trick worse than the actual one?

I would say it the other way round. If you have the ♣A, this will be a disappointment to partner. Now one of the values you promised for 4♥ is wasted, and with this hand I would fully expect that 5♥ by partner will turn out to be a phantom save.