Who to blame?

[Guest Jlall]

Pretty sure I messed this up, or maybe both people did.

 

Jxxx

Kxxxx

x

AQT

 

AKQxx

AJT8

Ax

xx

 

1S (3D) 4S p p p was the auction. Who was way off here (if anyone)?

[kenrexford]

No 4♦ call? How can that be right?

[han]

I also think the north hand is a minimum 4D call rather than a maximum 4S call.

[kenrexford]

I also think the north hand is a minimum 4D call rather than a maximum 4S call.

I think this is especially true because it is two below trumps. Opener can always LTTC a 4♥ call if he feels the need.

[jdonn]

I'm sure north should bid 4♦, but south should almost move over 4♠ anyway. Not quite though, I think, although it could easily be slam (just remove north's club queen and you definitely still want to be there).

[655321]

Agree that North should bid 4♦, and that South is very close to bidding on anyway.

[Guest Jlall]

Ok, I was north obviously. I agree I have a 4D bid. How close is it to a 4S bid (Ken seems to think not close, han thinks it's close...)? Would losing the SJ make it a 4S bid? Turning the CQ into the jack? Turning the HK into the Q?

[jdonn]

Ok, I was north obviously. I agree I have a 4D bid. How close is it to a 4S bid (Ken seems to think not close, han thinks it's close...)? Would losing the SJ make it a 4S bid? Turning the CQ into the jack? Turning the HK into the Q?

Not to be unhelpful as to the question you asked, but I think with this shape 10 is usually a cuebid, 8 usually isn't, and 9 could go either way. So I think the changes you suggest make it a very marginal decision, but if you are forcing me to choose I don't think I cuebid with those hands.

[kenrexford]

You have a hand that may well produce 5-6 covers (three honor covers, possibly two diamond ruffs, and possibly long hearts). Partner has LTTC available. I'd say "not close" is a fair representation of my thoughts. :)

 

If you made all three suggested changes (spade Jack to x, heart K to Q, and club Q to J), you'd have this hand:

 

♠xxxx ♥Qxxxx ♦x ♣AJ10

 

That's a 4♠ call. Changing back the Queen to a King and you are too good. Changing back the club to the Queen and I still think you are too good. The spade Jack does not sway me.

 

So, I'd say that you would have to change both the heart King toa Queen and the club Queen to the Jack for me. Maximum 4♠: ♠Jxxx ♥Qxxxx ♦x ♣AJ10

[whereagles]

Agree North could have bid 4♦. Then South, with his nice 18 hcp, can bid 4♥ after which North can take control and trot out old black. I suggest:

 

.... 4♦

4♥ 4NT

5♦ 5♥

6♥ pass

 

6♥ = queen, no other side values.

pass = then no 7.

 

7 is actually good (finesse kind of marked), but pretty hard to bid in this auction.

[gnasher]

I think xxxx Kxxxx x AQx would still be a 4♦ call, but Jxxx Qxxxx x AQx or Jxxx Kxxxx x AJx would not. So, fairly close.

 

I don't think South should consider moving. North's 4♠ has a wide range, slam needs a well-fitting maximum to be good, and we could easily be in trouble at the five level.

 

The underlying problem is that North has only two ways to raise to 4♠. Maybe 1♠ (3♦) 4♥ should be a "mixed" raise to game?

[Finch]

Ok, I was north obviously. I agree I have a 4D bid. How close is it to a 4S bid (Ken seems to think not close, han thinks it's close...)? Would losing the SJ make it a 4S bid? Turning the CQ into the jack? Turning the HK into the Q?

Do I want to be in a forcing pass auction if LHO bids 5D?

 

- without the SJ: yes

- Jxxx Kxxxx x AJ10: just about/marginal

- Jxxx Qxxxx x AQ10: no, I don't think so

 

the diamond singleton is a very pretty card. Assuming that we are agreed that 4D doesn't promise diamond control, it's still nice to have one.

 

Jxxx Kxxx xx AQ10: well, that might be a 3S call in fact, but the alternative is 4S not 4D.

 

Alternatively, what does a minimum 4S look like? To what extent do you just bid 4S for a laugh here?

 

Jxxx KQxxx xx xx?

 

is that a 4S bid?

[gnasher]

Jxxx KQxxx xx xx?

 

is that a 4S bid?

Or, rather worse from the point of view of a South who is considering a slam try, Jxxx xx xx KQxxx

[Apollo81]

Ok, I was north obviously. I agree I have a 4D bid. How close is it to a 4S bid (Ken seems to think not close, han thinks it's close...)? Would losing the SJ make it a 4S bid? Turning the CQ into the jack? Turning the HK into the Q?

I think it's close. Definitely a 4♠ bid if you turn the ♥K into the ♥Q, and definitely still a 4♦ bid if you turn the ♠J into the ♠2. I think I would still bid 4♦ if you turned the ♣Q into the ♣J but I think that's less clear.

[MFA]

North has a minimum 4♦ bid, not far from just 4♠ (which makes it a clear sign-off after 4♦-4♥ imo, whereagles).

I would certainly have bid again with south's cards after 4♠.

 

jxxx, xx, xx, kqxxx or the like is not a 4♠ bid.

[Finch]

Ok, I was north obviously. I agree I have a 4D bid. How close is it to a 4S bid (Ken seems to think not close, han thinks it's close...)? Would losing the SJ make it a 4S bid? Turning the CQ into the jack? Turning the HK into the Q?

I think it's close. Definitely a 4♠ bid if you turn the ♥K into the ♥Q, and definitely still a 4♦ bid if you turn the ♠J into the ♠2. I think I would still bid 4♦ if you turned the ♣Q into the ♣J but I think that's less clear.

Funny how people's evaluations differ.

 

I think

 

Jxxx Kxxxx x AJ10 is a better hand than

Jxxx Qxxxx x AQ10

[pclayton]

This is a hand you'd splinter without the intervention. With the preempt, the stiff diamond becomes that much more valuable. So, yeah you get a lot of the charge here.

 

So what exactly should 4♠ show? Where is the cutoff? Jxxx xx xx KQxxx isn't a 4♠ call, but make that hand 3=1 in the reds and it is.

 

I've never thought about it in depth, but perhaps a 4♠ hand is any 3♠ hand without shortage that has shortage. If the 3♠ hand has shortage, then perhaps 4♠ has an extra trump.

 

What about these:

 

A1. Jxxx xx xx KQxxx / A2. Jxxx xxx x KQxxx

B1. Jxxx Kxx xx AJxx / B2. Jxxx Kxxx x AJxx

C1. Jxx xxxxx x AKxx / C2. Jxxx xxxx x AKxx

 

All of the "2's" seem to resemble what I would call a mini-splinter. Slam is pretty good opposite all of the 2's except for A because of the ugly club duplication. Slam is also good opposite C1. Therefore, I think South gets some of the ding too.

[Apollo81]

Ok, I was north obviously. I agree I have a 4D bid. How close is it to a 4S bid (Ken seems to think not close, han thinks it's close...)? Would losing the SJ make it a 4S bid? Turning the CQ into the jack? Turning the HK into the Q?

I think it's close. Definitely a 4♠ bid if you turn the ♥K into the ♥Q, and definitely still a 4♦ bid if you turn the ♠J into the ♠2. I think I would still bid 4♦ if you turned the ♣Q into the ♣J but I think that's less clear.

Funny how people's evaluations differ.

 

I think

 

Jxxx Kxxxx x AJ10 is a better hand than

Jxxx Qxxxx x AQ10

So we agree? Reread my first post.

[brianshark]

I think having 2 quick-tricks is important. So I'd be happier to lose the club Q or spade J, but not the heart K.

[Finch]

Ok, I was north obviously. I agree I have a 4D bid. How close is it to a 4S bid (Ken seems to think not close, han thinks it's close...)? Would losing the SJ make it a 4S bid? Turning the CQ into the jack? Turning the HK into the Q?

I think it's close. Definitely a 4♠ bid if you turn the ♥K into the ♥Q, and definitely still a 4♦ bid if you turn the ♠J into the ♠2. I think I would still bid 4♦ if you turned the ♣Q into the ♣J but I think that's less clear.

Funny how people's evaluations differ.

 

I think

 

Jxxx Kxxxx x AJ10 is a better hand than

Jxxx Qxxxx x AQ10

So we agree? Reread my first post.

Oh yes sorry

[mike777]

Ok, I was north obviously. I agree I have a 4D bid. How close is it to a 4S bid (Ken seems to think not close, han thinks it's close...)? Would losing the SJ make it a 4S bid? Turning the CQ into the jack? Turning the HK into the Q?

I would think if this is clearly a 4d call without intervention then it is still a 4d with intervention. However if you open lite and this is not clearly a 4d splinter then I think 4s is ok now. For me I can come up with several hands where partner opens and 4s has no play if partner opens lite.

 

I guess I would ask does partner open junky balanced 11 hcp hands with 5 spades 100% of the time.

 

As for south, if 4s shows decent 12 or 13 total pts ( ok I am a pt counter) south may move again. I assume north bids 3s with less decent 12.

 

Again for me anyway it just goes back to how bad (lite) a hand does south open very very often in first seat in this partnership.

[keylime]

Admittedly, I bid 3♥ followed by spades here, just to keep hearts in the picture. I don't like the direct bid of 4D, because I have a pretty nice hand in scope here. If they sac, pard will be much better clued in and I'm bidding five with this to take pressure off of the forcing pass situation.

[Guest Jlall]

Jxxx KQxxx xx xx?

 

is that a 4S bid?

Or, rather worse from the point of view of a South who is considering a slam try, Jxxx xx xx KQxxx

I would never have considered a 4S bid with this hand. I always thought of a 4S bid as a good limit raise/bad GF hand and as 4D as a not-bad GF+. Bidding 4S on bad limit raise hands (and this example is like a queen weaker than that) seems like a bad idea?

 

I agree I misevaluated this hand pretty badly but is my general view on what a 4D/4S bid should mean wrong/non standard?

[Finch]

I agree I misevaluated this hand pretty badly but is my general view on what a 4D/4S bid should mean wrong/non standard?

I don't know. That's why I asked the question.

[pclayton]

Do we agree that 1♠ - (3♦) - 3♠ shows the top half of all single raises up to a weak limit raise? We wouldn't bid 3♠ on Jxx, xx, Kxxx, Qxxx would we? Change the hand a little and it qualifies for 3♠ IMO.

 

Starting from this premise, 4♠ should show an average limit raise up to a minimum GF. I don't think we have the luxury of throwing a typical LR into the 3♠ basket.

 

4♦ would include obviously better hands.

 

Or am I splitting hairs here?