how would YOU play this double?

[jillybean]

(P) 1♦ (P) 1♥

(P) 1♠ (2♣) X

 

I think it is take out, ♥ bidder has not limited her hand

[pclayton]

I play it as card showing, not penalty or takeout.

 

Weird auction by the way. I see people that make calls like this and I have no idea what they mean.

[jdonn]

Yes card showing. Meaning no known fit yet, at least game invitational values, inability (or lack of desire) to bid notrump.

[Gerben42]

The famous "do something intelligent" double. It shows "whatever I might currently have".

 

So in principle take out because partner's standard action is not to Pass.

[jillybean]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sk43haj96dq842ca2&s=sqt97h52dakj93ck4]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     -     Pass  1♦

 Pass  1♥    Pass  1♠

 2♣    Dbl   Pass  Pass

 Pass  

Here's the hand - how would you bid as north?

[BillHiggin]

Got stuff, no clear action - do something intelligent (which might include pass)

[pclayton]

The famous "do something intelligent" double. It shows "whatever I might currently have".

 

So in principle take out because partner's standard action is not to Pass.

One of my partners calls this a "Spike Lee" double (Do the Right Thing).

[pclayton]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sk43haj96dq842ca2&s=sqt97h52dakj93ck4]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

- - Pass 1♦

Pass 1♥ Pass 1♠

2♣ Dbl Pass Pass

Pass

Here's the hand - how would you bid as north?

Leaving in the double is not 'intelligent'. I'd bid 2♦ and 3N over the pending 3♣.

[cherdano]

I play it as card showing, not penalty or takeout.

 

Weird auction by the way. I see people that make calls like this and I have no idea what they mean.

It shows clubs and diamonds, but in real life the overcaller has a 10 count with a suit too bad to overcall the first time...

[jillybean]

Weird auction by the way. I see people that make calls like this and I have no idea what they mean.

Which call(s) dont you understand?

 

nb. Ive probably used the wrong term by calling this 'take out' Not knowing the correct names for all the doubles I tend to use this as a general term for anything other than penalty. :)

 

In our discussion after the hand,

pard, 2♣x is absolutely penalty....bid 3♣....or something else

me: 3♣ would invite 3nt with a ♣ stopper

your x on that hand shows clubs...at least 4 good ones

dear, it is always penalty

 

After "dear" I knew it was the end of the conversation :P

[jtfanclub]

Leaving in the double is not 'intelligent'. I'd bid 2♦ and 3N over the pending 3♣.

I agree, of course. I don't think North has a DSIP double, either.

 

My question is, how much would you change North (if any) to make it a proper X, and how much would you change South to leave it in?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

this is classic penalty double, but optional,

i.e. card showing is certainly more useful.

 

The double is certainly ok, and I dont mind

passing, the only thing which speaks against

passing is the vulnerability.

 

But of course North sees the vulnerability as

well and if he does not want South passing

could have bid 3NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jdonn]

North's double is not right IMO with diamond support, north could cuebid instead. Of course south should not pass the double either with an easy 2♦ bid.

[Vilgan]

I'd take it as card showing with a willingness to defend. As was mentioned.. north should probably just cue bid. Odds are 3 NT is the place to play the hand, however if south has Qxx in clubs it needs to be played from that side.

 

If cue bid might lead to confusion.. maybe just apply the Bob Hamman rule and bid 3 NT. I do (however) have some sympathy for south taking the X as penalty. I don't think it should be, but its a possible mistake (another reason north shouldn't double unless they are 100% sure south will understand).

[mikeh]

Dealer: East Vul: NS Scoring: IMP ♠ K43 ♥ AJ96 ♦ Q842 ♣ A2 ♠ QT97 ♥ 52 ♦ AKJ93 ♣ K4  

 

West  North East  South

 

-    -    Pass  1♦

Pass  1♥    Pass  1♠

2♣    Dbl  Pass  Pass

Pass 

Here's the hand - how would you bid as north?

Leaving in the double is not 'intelligent'. I'd bid 2♦ and 3N over the pending 3♣.

agreed. I would add that I think that the typical holding for the double is Hxx... opener should be thinking about leaving it in with Hxx herself.. the double, while not penalty, will be left in quite often (and should be... if only to teach the opps that this kind of delayed bidding is idiotic).

 

As it is, there is no way that I make a double with the responding hand.. I have far too many diamonds and not enough clubs. I'd like to bid a forcing 3♦, but I don't have that club in my bag, so I'd bid 3♣ to establish the gf. Fortunately, this being a forum, I don't have to post how I think the auction will continue, but I think we'll reach 3N :)

[Echognome]

I think most books will list this double as penalty under the rule "3 suits have been bid naturally." From my understanding of these posts, most people here would play it as an action/values/cooperative/spike lee/adjective/monkey/whatever double.

 

Has there been a departure from standard? Say I'm sitting there with my 4♥ and 5♣, are we going to expect partner to reopen having described his hand?

[han]

Has there been a departure from standard?

Love this comment.

 

Also think most books have been written in the past. Still, "Doubles, the Scanian way" probably doesn't give this as a penalty double. Don't know how Mike Lawrence treats this in "doubles". Can't think of any other modern books on doubles that might talk about this situation.

[Guest Jlall]

I would think this is a penalty double indicating that they made a stupid bid and I not-so-surprisingly have clubs. Not willing to give up on a penalty X when partner is rarely reopening X and where I often have a penalty X. There will be some awkward hands for me because of this, but I still think penalty is more useful.

[the hog]

I play it as penalty. Opener has shown long Ds and 4S, so based on that known shape I whack them. I would not double on this hand btw.

[kenrexford]

Well, one thing is for sure. Bidding 2♣ late like this usually means a dumb bid that deserves to be sawn off.

 

With the actual hand, 3♣ comes to mind.

 

You don't see this auction, though, very often.

[neilkaz]

Well, one thing is for sure. Bidding 2♣ late like this usually means a dumb bid that deserves to be sawn off.

 

With the actual hand, 3♣ comes to mind.

 

You don't see this auction, though, very often.

So the 2♣ overcaller didn't overcall the first time and now is just sticking an an "OBARish" bid in the only unbid suit, hoping to catch PD with enough ♣ and stuff to be a nuisance at the 3 level, incase we stop at the two level.

 

This is best played as penalty IMHO, or certainly penalty oriented, when playing with "average" players who make silly calls like passing and 2♣.

 

For me, if thinking about 2♣, I'll bid it the first time almost certainly since I'll overcall 1♦ with 2♣ with some real minimums as it can make life difficult for opener's PD at times.

 

On this hand, rather than confuse PD with a possibly ambiguous double and noting the vul and the fact that we should be clear fav's to make game, I cue bid 3♣ hoping PD has something he thinks stops ♣ afterwhich with my helping ace, I can't imagine getting hurt in that suit and PD will be trying for OT's in 3NT. If PD has no stop then I have to decide whether to try for 4♠, 5♦ or just bid 3NT anyhow.

[whereagles]

Weird auction by the way. I see people that make calls like this and I have no idea what they mean.

I've had that happening around here over and over again and overcaller usually has balancing values and a broken suit. The annoying thing is overcaller always seems to find AKxx in front...

 

Anyway, dbl = good hand, no clear direction. E.g. a TAKE OUT dbl :)

[Finch]

I just play this as penalty.

 

To me, it's nothing to do with whether the doubler is limited or not, it's more to do with whether doubler's partner is limited or not (that's why after partner pre-empts, doubles are penalty).

 

We have a simple rule which is once one member of a partnership has made two descriptive bids (e.g. opening and a rebid) doubles are now for penalty.

 

This is a prime auction to get big penalties in, by the way.

[Guest Jlall]

This is a prime auction to get big penalties in, by the way.

totally agree, think this point is being underestimated.

[Apollo81]

I would think this is a penalty double indicating that they made a stupid bid and I not-so-surprisingly have clubs. Not willing to give up on a penalty X when partner is rarely reopening X and where I often have a penalty X. There will be some awkward hands for me because of this, but I still think penalty is more useful.

agree and cuebid is fine for the good hands with lack of direction