One hand, four decisions

[Gerben42]

[hv=d=s&v=e&w=sakjhadkj76543ck3&e=st98764hq75d9cj95]266|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

South opens 1♥ and you double. Agree?

 

Next player bids 2♥, and you bid 2♠. Agree?

 

Next player bids 3♥, and you bid 4♦. Agree?

 

Now that you have bid as above, is 4♦ forcing?

[P_Marlowe]

#1 yes

#2 yes

#3 yes

#4 nf

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[gnasher]

I agree with everything so far. I think 4♦ should be forcing, because advancer has shown some values with 2♠.

[pclayton]

4♦ is 'pass this and I will throttle you'.

 

Agree with the bidding thus far. East bids 4♠ and West has a tough decision.

[rogerclee]

1) Agree

2) Agree

3) Agree

4) Forcing. I think it is normal for this to be NF when partner has not shown values and F when it has.

[Finch]

How on earth can 4D not be forcing?

We have shown a hand strong enough to double first then bid our suit at the 4-level opposite a hand which has enough to bid constructively.

 

p.s. I would have overcalled 2D over 1H.

[Winstonm]

Agree with all but with added comment about the free 2S and the 4D calls.

 

First, I think any player worthy of the name would bid 2S on absolute garbage if he had some shape. Jxxxxx, xxx, xxx, x, (so I don't buy the 'constructive bid' argument) yet at the same time would be forced to make the same call with a better hand and fewer spades, Qxxx, xxx, Ax, Jxxx.

 

Ergo, 4D must be forcing to either 4S or 5D.

[han]

How on earth can 4D not be forcing?

My thoughts exactly.

[jdonn]

Yes x 4

[neilkaz]

Agree with all and when I double and free bid my suit at the 4 level after PD shows values, it had better be forcing !

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

First, I think any player worthy of the name would bid 2S on absolute garbage if he had some shape.  Jxxxxx, xxx, xxx, x, (so I don't buy the 'constructive bid' argument) yet at the same time would be forced to make the same call with a better hand and fewer spades, Qxxx, xxx, Ax, Jxxx.

 

Ergo, 4D must be forcing to either 4S or 5D.

And because 2S can be absolute garbage, 4D should be NF,

at least in my opinion.

 

If partner has values, he surely will bid on, since he knows

his hand, and that 4D showes a powerhouse.

 

There are two possible reasons, why you would want 4D

to forcing

 

#1 your are still looking for slam

#2 you are investigating the best game

 

I dont really believe in the importance of #1, and I also

believe that NF will work for #2 reasonable well.

 

Of course a important aspect is, what does a dead min. 4D

bid looks like. Is the given hand dead min, or are there

weaker hands out there.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[the hog]

If you can bid 4D, that is abolutely forcing imo

[Gerben42]

I've been pondering about this hand quite some time now. If you can bid 2♠ on a weak hand with long ♠, perhaps overcaller should double 3♥ and correct any ♣ bids to ♦?

 

Or since he was playing against people who don't bid 2♥ on "nothing", he might think that partner is the weak hand and assume 5♠ and bid 4♠ himself.

 

East felt that he didn't have a trick for partner's 4♦ bid and partner would have bid differently with 3 good ♠, so he passed.

[gnasher]

I've been pondering about this hand quite some time now. If you can bid 2♠ on a weak hand with long ♠, perhaps overcaller should double 3♥ and correct any ♣ bids to ♦?

The hand-type where doubler is most likely to want to double again is a strongish takeout double with only three spades. It seems a poor idea to make the same call both with this and with a very strong distributional hand. With Qxxx xxx Qxx Qxx opposite a 3=2=4=4 17-count, advancer would want to defend 3♥x. Is he supposed to bid again (and if so, what?) just in case his partner has strong a one-suiter?

 

Or since he was playing against people who don't bid 2♥ on "nothing", he might think that partner is the weak hand and assume 5♠ and bid 4♠ himself.

I hate relying on the opponents to have their bids - it just seems to happen so rarely. Anyway, even if responder has a six count, opener might have only ten, leaving room for East to have a scattering of high cards.

 

East felt that he didn't have a trick for partner's 4♦ bid and partner would have bid differently with 3 good ♠, so he passed.

Even opposite a non-forcing 4♦, I'd bid 4♠. The East hand is likely to be far more useful in spades than in diamonds.

[andy_h]

Agree with all, and definitely forcing

[jtfanclub]

I play it as 'non-forcing', in the same way I play reverses as 'non-forcing'. Sure, I can make up a hand where I'd pass it, but I haven't done it yet.

 

I would have bid 2♠ with

T98764

xxx

x

9xx

 

Then I might pass.

 

I don't see the point in bidding 4♦. At least the way I play it, responder has promised 5 spades. Why not bid 4♥ and see if partner has interest in slam?

[Finch]

At least the way I play it, responder has promised 5 spades.

While it would be nice to have five spades, I don't think it promises them.

 

There are plenty of people around who play 1H x 2H x as showing both minors, for whom 2S can only ever promise four spades.

 

I'm not one of them, I play 1H x 2H x as shown two suits, so any 4342 would double, however even for me 2S doesn't promise 5 - what else do you bid on

 

KQxx

xxxx

Kxx

xx

 

or similar?

[jtfanclub]

KQxx

xxxx

Kxx

xx

 

or similar?

In competition I'd pass.

 

However, in this case the doubler has AKJ of trump, so it shouldn't even be a question. You wouldn't bid 2♠ in comp. with

 

QT98

xxxx

Kxx

xx

 

would you?

[dcvetkov]

I am not sure I agree with #2. I would have bid 3s the first time, premptively. It describes that hand better, and shosing my hand early ( long spades, not much else). Then West does not need to mention diamonds at all, and at the same time can forget about any slams.

[Finch]

No, but wouldn't you on

 

Q1098

xxxx

Qx

KQx

 

you can't pass...

 

 

I agree that given you are looking at AKJ of spades partner is hugely likely to have five. But I was disagreeing with the premise that the auction 1H x 2H 2S promises five spades in general.

[jtfanclub]

No, but wouldn't you on

 

Q1098

xxxx

Qx

KQx

 

you can't pass...

 

 

I agree that given you are looking at AKJ of spades partner is hugely likely to have five. But I was disagreeing with the premise that the auction 1H x 2H 2S promises five spades in general.

That hand I X on. I would X on any 10+ with no suit and no stopper, and I consider that to be 'no suit'.

 

If it were....

 

AKJT

xxxx

Qx

xxx

 

yeah, I might consider that a 5 card suit, you are right.

[benlessard]

4D is lame. Do you expect partner to cuebid 4H ? or to bypass 4S with xx in H?

 

4H is a much better bid then 4D not close at all.

[Apollo81]

1) Agree

2) Agree

3) Agree

4) Forcing. I think it is normal for this to be NF when partner has not shown values and F when it has.

agree

[Guest Jlall]

4D is lame. Do you expect partner to cuebid 4H ? or to bypass 4S with xx in H?

 

4H is a much better bid then 4D not close at all.

Bidding your 7 card suit is lame? Maybe you belong in diamonds. Maybe partner will in fact cuebid and you can bid a slam. Maybe partner will rebid spades with 5 of them and you can get to spades. 4H agreeing spades in what may well be a 4-3 fit rather than bidding your 7 card suit seems "lame"

[benlessard]

Bidding your 7 card suit is lame? Maybe you belong in diamonds. Maybe partner will in fact cuebid and you can bid a slam. Maybe partner will rebid spades with 5 of them and you can get to spades. 4H agreeing spades in what may well be a 4-3 fit rather than bidding your 7 card suit seems "lame"

 

The chance that 5D is better contract then 4S is marginal (my guess under 2%) partner rate to have 5 of them 80%+ and the 4-3 fit should play well anyway. I dont really see how you can expect to reach slam after a 4D bid. If partner rebid 4S im pretty sure you cannot make a further move. If he bid 4H the ♥K is wasted and im not sure he will like having a badly placed ♥K. If you think the hand has little slam potential then 4D to reach the best game make sense. But for slam 4D will not work.

 

4H for me is still keeping a very very slim chance of getting to 6D instead of 6S. The way i play my 5Nt pick a slam ill be able to get to 6D instead of 6S if partner got ♠Txxx and ♦Qxx.