when to break Lebensohl transfer

[Wackojack]

This hand prompted me to think about when to break the Lebensohl 2NT to 3♣ transfer. After a take out double of a weak 2, I believe it is standard to play Lebensohl 0-7 unless you intend not to pass the 3♣ transfer in order to show a different type of hand. Thus if you take a weak 2 to be 5-9 (normal over here) then on average it has 7 points. This seems to mean that if you make a take out double on 18 points, then on average there are 15 points remaining, so partner will, as often as not, have 7 points, (not sure how much the probability is skewed when partner cannot have more than 7 points but opponent can.... any comments from mathematicians?) so you should break the 3♣ transfer and go for game. If you have 18+ points and no stop you can bid 3 of opps major asking for a stop and if you have a stop you can bid 3NT. Any comments so far?[hv=d=n&v=e&n=sq986542h4dk5c1042&w=sj7haq965dajckqj7&e=sa103hj87dq82c9853&s=skhk1032d1097643ca6]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

North opened 2♠ and after 2 passes west doubled, east (me) bid 2NT and partner who was aware that this was Lebensohl bid 3NT. The contract was made easily. My analysis suggests that West was right to double for take out rather than overcall 2♥ and having 18 points was right to break the transfer to 3♣. 3NT clearly looks wrong to me, but what should he bid? 3♥ or 3♠. Does 3♥ suggest a self supporting suit or is it good enough? Also does my analysis stand up for a take-out double in 4th seat? Comments welcome.

[Vilgan]

Auction should go:

 

2♠ p p X

p 2NT p 3♥

p 4♥

 

3 NT is just a total shot in the dark, removing partner completely from the auction. TBH, east should probably consider a 4NT invite after the bidding given.

 

3♥ shows exactly: 5+ hearts, was too strong to simply overcall. It is not omg we MUST play in hearts. It just states his hand, and leaves it open to partner to pass (if super mega weak), bid 3 NT with a stopper, raise to 4♥, or cue bid 3♠ asking for a stop that can handle being led through.

 

Eric

[rbforster]

Does 3♥ [after X...2N] suggest a self supporting suit or is it good enough?

Remember that with a self-sufficient suit and a good hand partner could have bid either 4♥ or X'ed and then bid 4♥.

[csdenmark]

You are wrong bidding the Lebensohl relay. As you mention you only do so for a weak hand, 0-7cP.

 

The correct bidding will be, acc. to Ron Andersen: 2♠-DBL-Pass-3♦(10+cP, trans to 3♥)

 

You find the convention here: http://bridgefiles.net/cc/Conventions.bss

 

This might be a bit more complicated because it is normally assumed it is the strong hand to double. I think the auction ought to be something like:

 

2♠-Pass-Pass-DBL

Pass-2NT(Lebensohl delay)-Pass-3♣ or 3♥(Relay)

 

I have never found anything about when to break the 3♣ but logic I think means it need to be unbalanced, more unbalanced than 5-4-2-2. If you bid the 3♣ the continuation is transfer or bidding stopper/no stopper.

[inquiry]

The total bidding seems wacky to me.

 

But lets handle the question at hand. When to break the transfer. This should be a paradox decision. If your hand is sooooo strong with a fit for clubs, such that you would be afraid of missing game should you bid 3♣ and partner pass, then you should not bid 3♣. Having decided you should not bid 3♣, the next question is your hand soooo strong that you would fear missing game if you bid 3♦ (next suit up the line), then you should bid not bid 3♦ either. So if you are afraid of missing game if partners suit is clubs, you bid diamond, but if you are ALSO afaid of missing game suit is diamonds, you bid hearts... and if you are afraid of missing game if his suit is clubs, diamonds, or hearts? Right, you bid spades, etc.

 

Your partner has 18 points including a possible (likely?) wasted jack of spades. Is he really afraid of missing game if you hand was, say...

 

xxx x Qxxxxx xxx and you had planned on bidding 3♦ over 3♣? The answer is no. So if your partner WANTED to show extra values, he should have bid 3♦ over 2NT to show great club support and EXTRA value, along with diamond weakness (or lack of strong diamond fit).

 

His 3NT bid was, well, very lucky this time.

 

As for the other choices (dbl versus hearts, 2NT versus 3C, i leave it for others to discuss).

[awm]

I've found that it's often better to accept the 2NT relay with 18 hcp. While it seems likely just looking at my 18 hcp that we have game, when partner bids 2NT the chances of game go down. Certainly if partner has an absolute maximum 2NT bid then we will have game opposite my 18 but it seems more likely partner has something typical like 4-5 points and game is sketchy at best. And if partner has something truly awful I will be glad to have avoided a doubled game.

 

I also disagree with Ben that this is a paradox situation. The paradox approach works well when there is a possibility of a super-fit in one suit while there is virtually no fit in another (i.e. partner opens 2♦ multi and I have 1-4 in the majors). But a hand that makes a takeout double usually doesn't have this kind of shape. In a takeout double auction, generally opener has either lots of extra points or not so much, and finding game is more about determining the high cards.

 

My preferences for breaking the 2NT relay are based around finding fits in the other major and stoppers for notrump. I like:

 

3♦ = something like 20+ hcp, normally 4♥, forcing to game or 4m

3♥ = flexible hand with around 20+ hcp, 5♥

3♠ = stopper ask; normally denies a 4-card heart suit (else 3♦)

3NT = offering a contract, but partner can pull with 5♥ (else would bid 3NT directly over 2♠)

[helene_t]

18 points is certainly not enough to force to game. If p is limited to 7, we need 18 to invite. Maybe it should even be 19, accepting that we cannot bid as accurately as without the preempt.

 

That said, in balancing seat the requirement for a double is slightly lower so the same should be true for the rebids.

 

Ben's paradox rebids are interesting, but I am worried if we find the right strain if responder doesn't have a long (5+) suit. I think standard is 3♦ being natural (18-20 or such with 5+ diamonds).

 

As for 3♥ vs 3♠ I don't have strong feelings either way, but clearly both are much better than 3NT.

[han]

I'd bid a NF 3H as well.

 

North should grow some courage, 2S at favorable is ridiculous.

[Wackojack]

Thanks for the comments. Yes of course, one can criticise opps 2♠ opening and partner's 3NT. I think that was a "saturday night after the pubs close" bid. I think I agree with Adams comments about paradox responses, but feel that the requirement to break the 3♣ transfer is a little bit pessimistic. It all comes down to how strong do you expect partner to be after he has shown 0-7 points? With a good 5 card hearts suit and 18 points, you expect 15 points to be divided between your partner and your opponent. I would guess that the mathematical average would be close to 10 to opp and 5 to partner. Mathematicians could surely come up with the answer with their probability distributions. So with 23 combined points expected with a 5-3 fit, surely this hand is worth breaking the transfer with an invitational? 3♥ bid. fwiiw my guess is that with only 4 hearts and a stop you probably need a good 19 and with neither 4 hearts nor a stop maybe 20.

[Guest Jlall]

I think west has a 3H bid since he was in balancing seat, would just bid 3C if I were in direct seat though. 3H doesn't suggest anything other than a good hand with 5+ hearts. I think that the range for lebensohl shouldn't be 0-7 after a balancing X since you wouldn't force to game with 12 etc, and it needs to be like 9+-12 (very roughly) to not leb.