Shirley, this will be unanimous?

[han]

Back in 1976 I didn't even know anything existed, how about that!

[whereagles]

After North's dbl, South knows a game is on, so he could have cued 3♥.

 

Just my opinion.......

[TimG]

Just because there are new methods out there and everyone

is playing them, does not mean they are better than the old /

outdated ones.

In this case the old methods are quite inferior I think, for example, the hand Jillybean had becomes pretty much unbiddable.

Wouldn't you compete to 3♦ with something like xx x KQxx AQxxxx when the negative double is really a takeout double rather than a substitute spade bid?

 

I don't think jilly's hand becomes unbiddable, I think a good/bad 2NT works nicely (my preference would be a direct 3D shows extras, 2NT followed by 3D shows a hand that is merely competing, but many prefer the other way around).

[han]

After North's dbl, South knows a game is on, so he could have cued 3♥.

 

Just my opinion.......

Nuno, do you play that 3D is a forcing reverse or not? If it is forcing, why would you bid 3H instead, isn't 3D more descriptive? If it is non-forcing, do you play 1C-(1H)-1S-(2H)-3D is also non-forcing?

[whereagles]

han: in my usual partnership I play good-bad 2NT, which would make 3♦ pretty much forcing (weaker hands bid 2NT + 3♦) and routine on the given hand.

 

But here I wasn't assuming that agreement, hence the recommendation to bid 3♥, to make sure we don't (skillfully) manage to stay out of game :P

[jillybean]

Seriously 3♥? I want to hear what is the best / standard 2008 method to bid these hands rather than after seeing the final pass, how we could have forced game.

[awm]

(1) 3♦ shows extras. It is a free bid in a contested auction. Regardless of whether 1♣-1♥-X-P-2♦ would be a reverse, there is no one forcing opener to bid in this auction.

Do you play that 1C-(1H)-Dbl-(2H)-2S shows extras? I don't think so so this argument is false.

It sort of shows extras, in that there are hands where I would bid 1♠ over 1♣-(1♥)-X-(pass) but I would not bid 2♠ over the raise.

 

However, this auction is different because of the change in level. I certainly play that:

 

1♣-(1♠)-X-(2♠)-3♥ shows extras. Otherwise how is partner to know what to do with a mildly invitational double? Obviously without the 2♠ bid, 2♥ is not extras.

 

1♣-(1♥)-X-(2♥)-3♣ also extras. Again, without the 2♥ bid, 2♣ is not extras.

 

1♦-(1♥)-X-(2♥)-3♣ also extras. Again, without the 2♥ bid 2♣ is not extras.

 

I'd argue that bidding 2♠ over 2♥ is sort of a special case, because we are not raising the level of the auction. Nonetheless, there do exist many hands with 3♠ where I would bid 1♠ if possible but pass over 2♥, and a few hands with 4♠ (typically 4333) where I might pass 2♥ in this auction.