Shirley, this will be unanimous?

[jillybean]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=sq842hk9daj762c95&s=skjh4dkq93cakj732]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     Pass  Pass  1♣

 1♥    Dbl   2♥    3♦

 Pass  Pass  Pass  

[Apollo81]

North's fault, and don't call me Shirley =)

[rogerclee]

As far as outrageous errors go, I don't think this is so extreme. North simply thought he was promising ♠+♦ and that partner was just competing.

 

North just has to learn how to play negative doubles.

[han]

North was playing very old fashioned negative doubles and thought the double showed diamonds so 3D did not show extras.

 

South thought 3D was a reverse.

 

The way negative doubles are played these days the double just shows 4 spades, so south was right.

[jdonn]

North was playing very old fashioned negative doubles and thought the double showed diamonds so 3D did not show extras.

 

South thought 3D was a reverse.

 

The way negative doubles are played these days the double just shows 4 spades, so south was right.

Josh, why can't you just say that you agree with me, is that so hard to do?  :P

 

I agr........ I agree w....... I agre...... I CANT DO IT!

[jillybean]

Han, youre 100% right! My partner here is an elderly SLM, I never dreamt they'd pass 3♦.

 

Now will the person who bid both please raise their hand?

[han]

Han, youre 100% right! My partner here is an elderly SLM, I never dreamt they'd pass 3♦.

Silver life master? Saturday live manual? Some lousy maniac?

 

Anyways, if someone has been playing certain methods for all her live it is hard to get them to change and it may not be worth trying. It is probably best to try to play her methods, no matter how outdated they are. The difficulty is that she might not be able to explain exactly what her methods are.

[jtfanclub]

It is probably best to try to play her methods, no matter how outdated they are.

Which makes it whose fault? :P

[jillybean]

It is probably best to try to play her methods, no matter how outdated they are.

But I dont want to play out dated methods, I want to learn the most effective methods :P

[han]

You can learn how people play it today and still play what she's comfortable with when you play with her.

[jillybean]

You can learn how people play it today and still play what she's comfortable with when you play with her.

True and when I am sure of what I am doing myself, I'll be able to flip flop between styles without blinking an eye. :P

[the hog]

Well....With my partners I would bid 1S with the Nth hand. The X would actually deny 4 or more S. I know some here don't like that and need/want the crutch of being able to show 4 or 5+S. However the way we play it has served us very well.

Playing with this lady you would have needed to bid 4D I guess.

[neilkaz]

3♦ free bid and even if just competing would seem to imply something extra to me ! With that in mind, I show a maximum pass as N with a 3♥ bid and if PD rebids 3NT my K will really solidfy his stopper and if be rebids something else, he knows I have almost an opener.

 

Anyhow, this thread and a few other have reminded me that my knowledge of "modern" negative doubling is about a decade behind the times in some sequences.

 

Could someone recommend a very good book on NegX or is Bergen's basically it and the way many experts play it ?

 

TY .. neilkaz ..

[Codo]

I really think that the approach: Double shows just spades and no diamonds, so 3 Diamond is a reverse is much more common in the Forum then in real life.

 

It may be the choice of 100 % of all experts in gods own country, but I do remember some bidding panels here who don't believe in this approach.

 

If I had to bet what is most common here, I would bet: X shows the unbid suits. If the doubler happens to have just the unbid major, then the hand must be able to handle any rebid from partner. (By bidding NT, raising his opening suit etc.)

 

So, 3 Diamond was a clear underbid opposite a partner who is not en vogue with the Forum Standard.

 

But passing 3 Diamond was an underbid anyway.

[P_Marlowe]

North, but it is not 100% clear.

 

Depending on the neg. X style, the neg. X by North promised

both suits.

Which would mean, and absent any specific agreement, the

3D bid by South did not promise a lot of add. strength, most

54 hands would bid 3D.

If North did interprete 3D this way, ..., North has a problem,

because he may or may not bid, if he bids on, it would be 3NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

It is probably best to try to play her methods, no matter how outdated they are.

But I dont want to play out dated methods, I want to learn the most effective methods <_<

Your aim should be to learn how to bid effective and succesful

with a given partner.

 

Just because there are new methods out there and everyone

is playing them, does not mean they are better than the old /

outdated ones.

 

Transfer Overcall were once in vogue, they were trendy,

overcalling your suit direct was thought to be outdated.

Do you know anyone playing Transfer Overcalls?

There are other examples.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[andy_h]

North was playing very old fashioned negative doubles and thought the double showed diamonds so 3D did not show extras.

 

South thought 3D was a reverse.

 

The way negative doubles are played these days the double just shows 4 spades, so south was right.

agree ^^

[han]

Just because there are new methods out there and everyone

is playing them, does not mean they are better than the old /

outdated ones.

In this case the old methods are quite inferior I think, for example, the hand Jillybean had becomes pretty much unbiddable.

 

I must have missed the time when everybody was playing transfer overcalls.

[Codo]

... I think, for example, the hand Jillybean had becomes pretty much unbiddable.

Lol nice joke.

 

Hmm, no smiley so maybe this was no joke?

 

If the double promised spades and diamonds, how can you miss 5 Diamonds with Jills hand, looking for 6 during the bidding?

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

 

I must have missed the time when everybody was playing transfer overcalls.

well, maybe a bad example, maybe what ever

.... and certainly it is area depend, but if I got pclaytons

comment in certain threads right, transfer overcalls were

quite popular, at least in parts of the US, in the 70s (?!).

 

Another example are light openings, EHAA comes to mind,

currently the tide is turning, i.e. sounder openings styles are

on the rise (see e.g. Fantunes)

 

Certain things are "In" , and after a while they are "Out",

and sometimes there is no logical explanation.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[awm]

(1) 3♦ shows extras. It is a free bid in a contested auction. Regardless of whether 1♣-1♥-X-P-2♦ would be a reverse, there is no one forcing opener to bid in this auction.

 

(2) North should bid game over such a free bid, with ten points and five-card support for diamonds.

 

(3) Suppose the auction had been 1♣-2♥-X-Pass, creating more of a force on opener. If your style is that 3♦ does not show extra values, then opener should bid 3♥ on the hand given. It is not unlikely that 3NT is the right contract with 17 hcp opposite a two-level negative double, and you have to force game in any case.

[jillybean]

It is probably best to try to play her methods, no matter how outdated they are.

But I dont want to play out dated methods, I want to learn the most effective methods ;)

Your aim should be to learn how to bid effective and succesful

with a given partner.

 

Just because there are new methods out there and everyone

is playing them, does not mean they are better than the old /

outdated ones.

 

Transfer Overcall were once in vogue, they were trendy,

overcalling your suit direct was thought to be outdated.

Do you know anyone playing Transfer Overcalls?

There are other examples.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

It is probably best to try to play her methods, no matter how outdated they are.

 

This is taken out of context. It may be best trying to play these methods with this particular partner who has been playing for years and likely won’t be interested in changing methods. I think this is also what Han said. Partnership agreement is of course paramount here.

 

I am posting these questions because I want to know what some of today’s top players are using, not what the LOLs have been playing for the past 50 years. Afterall, without new and perhaps better methods this game would be diminished.

[han]

(1) 3♦ shows extras. It is a free bid in a contested auction. Regardless of whether 1♣-1♥-X-P-2♦ would be a reverse, there is no one forcing opener to bid in this auction.

Do you play that 1C-(1H)-Dbl-(2H)-2S shows extras? I don't think so so this argument is false.

[jdeegan]

:P South 100%. If you need the opinion of an old fashioned bidder, I am you man. Playing SAYC circa 1976, the negative double shows spades (less than five or a biddable 4 card suit), some cards plus either diamonds or a place to play. On that basis, 3♦ would be competitive, not a dead minimum, but not the relative powerhouse South actually held. When you see game, you gotta make sure you get there, or at least make a clearcut try.

[jillybean]

Back in 1976 I didnt know the game even existed :rolleyes: