Disaster!

[TimG]

No expert here, maybe that's why I'm shocked by people objecting to the 3♠ bid.

 

North has fairly cruddy hearts, and three spades to an honor. Partner may still have 5 spades, he may be looking for slam, 3♦ may not show anything exciting in diamonds (wanna play 3NT if partner has Ax in diamonds?).

Wouldn't opener have bid 3♠ instead of 3♦ with a 5xx6 hand? King 5th seems like a decent stopper and after the 3♦ bid, if it shows a fragment, three of responder's six HCPs are likely wasted when it comes to a slam.

[the hog]

2♠

Why rush? Both opps passed their first turn so there is no need to preempt.

South has a forcing 1♠ bid available and an easy ♦ bid as 4th suit forcing over any bid North might make.

 

I think modern bidding is to go slow on strong hands, so the jump to 2♠ implies an more unbalanced hand with less HCP.

 

I would guess that North expects South to have 6+♣ and 4+♠ and 3♣ is the weakest rebid North could make. ♥Kxxxx and ♠Qxx are harly the stopper you would bid NT with, and the South hand should play NT if its strong. So 3♠ promises help to stop ♠ and asks South to bid NT. South passing 3NT is a slam try.

North can only assume that South is even more unbalanced, if he ignores partners weak hand and bids on. Notth has only 2 possibilities to stop at game level, 4♠ (assuming South has 5) and 5♣ unfortunately he choose 4♠.

I totally agree, but some even here on this forum, do not play 1S as forcing. However it is by far not the worst bid.

[mikeh]

The problem appeared to me to be, and was then confirmed by the OP to have been, confusion over the meaning of 3♣.

 

One took it as a strong bid, the other as merely a preference... one thought that 2N (I assume) was available as an artificial slow-down call, as over reverses, while the other thought 2N showed something in diamonds.

 

It is difficult and perhaps unfair to then assess further blame, because that basic misunderstanding meant the auction was an accident waiting to happen.

 

However, since both players should have known that they were guessing, and that there was a chance that they were guessing inconsistently, I think that S bears most of the blame.

 

He should have bid 3N over 3♠. There was no rush to cue bid hearts. He has shown a BIG hand, that actually is not that good for slam purposes: he has a lot of work to do in the spade suit notwithstanding partner's 'cue'. Surely he can bid 3N....trusting that his partner will be able to pull that call with a slam-suitable holding. I don't normally like taking calls that are hedges against a possible misunderstanding, but 3N is far from 'wrong' even if S is correct in his view of N's bidding, and it is clearly best if he is mistaken.

 

This hand is not as good as the hcp indicates: it is not nearly as good as, say, AJ10x x AQx AKQxx, where 3N would be a huge underbid IF we were in a strong auction, as S believed.

[pclayton]

This is a very humorous sequence.

 

1♣, 1♥, 2♠ - All OK.

 

3♣. It isn't necessary to tell a lie here. 3♦ is a perfectly good hedge.

 

3♦ - I like it. Patterns out (sort of - this might be an advance cue) and gets partner involved. 3N could be very wrong if pard has a weak heart suit.

 

3♠ - ??!!!. At some point we need to try to limit our hand and give pard a chance to get off the merry-go-round.

 

4♥ - OK, pard is making strong slam moves. I've denied heart support so I'll show my card. I still blame North, since North has evidently transmitted a STD to South (Slam Try Disorder). 4♥ is the only wrong call South has made in this auction.

 

4♠ - North finally wakes up after Mardi Gras and discovers he's made two potential slam tries. The helicopter is spinning and North is trying to land it. Instead, he cue bids a 2nd time (!). Proceed to warp drive Scotty.

 

5♥ - SON OF A BITCH! Partner is describing: AKx, Qxxx, ??, Qxxx. Lets see if we can coax a diamond control.

 

6♣ - (I want my Mommy).

 

Like Josh, I sort of lost interest in this hand after 3♠, since the damage was done with 3♣ and 3♠.

[awm]

I don't get the 3♠ bid.

 

North has a terrible hand for slam in any strain. Six points in slow cards, no real fit, balanced shape. And surely hearts are not a huge concern with north holding five of them including king and some spots. South will not have five spades on this auction (what was the 3♦ bid then? why not 3♠ over 3♣?). It seems like 3♠ is either an attempt to play in a moysian for no apparent reason (no ruffing value, no problem in the fourth suit) or an attempt to cuebid a non-existent ace or king. South has already shown a diamond control (3♦ is not fourth suit forcing when clubs are agreed!) -- why not bid 3NT here?

 

I agree there is some uncertainty about how good of a hand/fit 3♣ might show, but surely it could be a real fit. Having made a 3♣ bid that could be a real fit without a real fit, north should try 3NT as soon as it becomes clear that contract is playable.

[ArtK78]

I agree 100% that a 1♠ rebid by opener would not be forcing. That is not to say that bidding 1♠ would be terrible. What is the worst thing that could happen? You wind up playing in 1♠ with 19 facing 5 or 6 and miss a marginal game that may or may not make?

 

Anyway, aside from that, 3♣ was bad (prefer 2NT) but 3♠ was clearly the worst call. Why is responder making all of these strong sounding calls on a flat 6 count? If the partnership agreement does not allow for a 2NT call over 2♠ (which is the only reason I can come up with for the 3♣ call) then bidding 3NT over 3♦ is 100% clear. 3NT may be the limit of the hand and you have no fit.

 

After the 3♠ bid, confusion reigned, so none of the bids after that make much sense.

[gnasher]

3♦ is not fourth suit forcing when clubs are agreed!

What would you bid over 3♣ with AKJx xx Qx AKQxx ?

[CSGibson]

3♦ is not fourth suit forcing when clubs are agreed!

What would you bid over 3♣ with AKJx xx Qx AKQxx ?

1♠ (over 1♥). I don't think this is quite strong enough to GF. Of course I'm half of the partnership who had this auction anyway, so my opinion probably doesn't have much weight at the moment.

[CSGibson]

This is a very humorous sequence.

 

1♣, 1♥, 2♠ - All OK.

 

3♣. It isn't necessary to tell a lie here. 3♦ is a perfectly good hedge.

 

3♦ - I like it. Patterns out (sort of - this might be an advance cue) and gets partner involved. 3N could be very wrong if pard has a weak heart suit.

 

3♠ - ??!!!. At some point we need to try to limit our hand and give pard a chance to get off the merry-go-round.

 

4♥ - OK, pard is making strong slam moves. I've denied heart support so I'll show my card. I still blame North, since North has evidently transmitted a STD to South (Slam Try Disorder). 4♥ is the only wrong call South has made in this auction.

 

4♠ - North finally wakes up after Mardi Gras and discovers he's made two potential slam tries. The helicopter is spinning and North is trying to land it. Instead, he cue bids a 2nd time (!). Proceed to warp drive Scotty.

 

5♥ - SON OF A BITCH! Partner is describing: AKx, Qxxx, ??, Qxxx. Lets see if we can coax a diamond control.

 

6♣ - (I want my Mommy).

 

Like Josh, I sort of lost interest in this hand after 3♠, since the damage was done with 3♣ and 3♠.

Phil, you are my hero. You absolutely captured my whole thought process during the auction, even when I made bad bids.

[jdonn]

Like Josh, I sort of lost interest in this hand after 3♠, since the damage was done with 3♣ and 3♠.

Like me lost interest, but not at all for the same reason. I still consider 3♣ perfectly normal. It's merely a preference. And since when is 3♠ a slam try? It's a search for the best game, clearly IMO implying bad hearts for 3NT, which is why I think south should bid it at that point with his help. Ok so he didn't have 3♠ either way, but it shouldn't have induced 4♥ which (sorry OP) I still think is the worst bid.

[the hog]

You hold:

AKxx

A

Jxx

AKJxx

 

Not playing blackout, why is 3C by responder not just simple preference?

What do you bid with the hand above - 3NT may be a far better contract than 5C and how are you going to find it if you can't bid 3D asking for a stopper? On whose authority is 3D not 4sf? I love those definitive pronouncements like the one made by Adam that 4sf doesn't apply. YOU may play it that way, but certainly not everyone does. What's with this "patterning out" mania?

 

[Hand edited after thinking under the shower- sorry Josh. Your comment is fair enough and I agree with it. You have to pick some style to use, so you pick what you like. For me, 4sf applies from both hands as I don't really like to find my stopper is jxx opposite xx and that I am going off when 5m or the moysian 4M is a better game. Your views may differ.]

[jdonn]

You hold:

AKxx

A

Jx

AKJxxx

 

Not playing blackout, why is 3C by responder not just simple preference?

What do you bid with the hand above - 3NT may be a far better contract than 5C and how are you going to find it if you can't bid 3D asking for a stopper? On whose authority is 3D not 4sf? What's with this "patterning out" mania?

I don't understand making these arguments because they work both ways. Take the actual hand, if you bid 3NT and partner is sitting there with a stiff spade he has no clue whether 3NT is best or if he should go on instead. You can't have it both ways, so you choose a style, and I'm happy with the one I use which is completely natural and involves no extra conventions (or misapplied conventions, since AFAIC 4SF only applies on responder's rebid, ever.) Why do we need it to be on someone's authority that a bid which has use as natural is natural?

[CSGibson]

Like Josh, I sort of lost interest in this hand after 3♠, since the damage was done with 3♣ and 3♠.

Like me lost interest, but not at all for the same reason. I still consider 3♣ perfectly normal. It's merely a preference. And since when is 3♠ a slam try? It's a search for the best game, clearly IMO implying bad hearts for 3NT, which is why I think south should bid it at that point with his help. Ok so he didn't have 3♠ either way, but it shouldn't have induced 4♥ which (sorry OP) I still think is the worst bid.

I'm in agreement with you about my 4♥ being the worst bid in retrospect, for the reasons mentioned by many.

[pretzalz]

I'm surprised no one has suggested opening 2N. Is that really that horrible? I just really don't like jump-shifting into a semi-non suit on this auction.

[han]

Horrible is too strong but I don't like opening 2NT with a singleton when I have a perfect jump shift available. The jump shifts not only shows 4 spades, it also shows 5+ clubs.