to open or not to open

[babalu1997]

In a recent post, I stated that I would not have opened the following hand as dealer, and some disagreed:

 

♠ JT9

♥ 3

♦ QJT7

♣ AKJxx

 

I stated I would pass the hand as dealer, and the assumption is that SAYC was being played.

 

This hand contains 2 quick tricks, a singleton heart, and the jack of spades is a wasted honour.

 

As dealer, I have no reason to count distribution points, or shortage points fpr the heart.

 

To open a hand, shouldn't opener have a sound rebid?

 

So I would like to pose the following questions:

 

a) do you open? if so, what is your opening bid?

 

:) What do you rebid if partner answers 1 diamond?

 

c) What do you rebid if partner answers 1 heart?

 

d) What do you rebid if partner answers 1 spade?

 

I suppose if I had to open perhaps I would open 1 diamond and then rebid 2 clubs.

 

 

The reason I ask is because I have seen many partners open 1 minor and when I answer 1 heart or 1 sapde , they simply pass. Just yesterday, a partner passed me at 1 spade when I held 18 hcp. He had one of these very light opening hands and commented that **he saw not future, so he passed**. I thought it was the role of the unpassed responder to see the future.

[P_Marlowe]

#a yes, 1C - I open my longest suit most of the time,

and I see no reason not to do it with the given hand

#b 2D, which would show 5-4 perfect

#c 1NT, which would show a bal. hand with 12-14 HCP

denying a 4 card heart suit and a 4 card spade suit,

not perfect, but close enough

If you dont like 1NT, bid 2C

#d 2S, which would show 12-14/15HCP, and 4 card support,

the heart shortage and you strong 5 card suit should

be compensation enough for the missing spade card,

and most of the time, partner will have 5 spades anyway

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

The reason I ask is because I have seen many partners open 1 minor and when I answer 1 heart or 1 sapde , they simply pass.  Just yesterday, a partner passed me at 1 spade when I held 18 hcp.  He had one of these very light opening hands and commented that **he saw not future, so he passed**.  I thought it was the role of the unpassed responder to see the future.

Dont play with him again, unless you enjoy talking /

chatting with him.

 

If you open, you promise partner to bid again,

unless partner has limited itself, which is not

the case if partner responds in a suit and is not

a passed hand.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[whereagles]

babalu, what you stated is bidding theory of the 1950s. These days the hand shown is not even a marginal opener. It's a full-fledged sound opener.

 

As to your 4 questions:

 

What to open? 1♦ or 1♣, depending on style issues.

Rebid after 1♦? Easy 2♦.

Rebid after 1♥? Easy 2♣ or 1NT, depending on style.

Rebid after 1♠? East 2♣ or 2[sp, depending on style.

[awm]

I agree with most of what others have posted. The modern style is to open most 12 point hands. The hand given is actually quite a nice twelve, with a good five-card suit and two well-placed tens. This is certainly better than for example ♠Jxx ♥xx ♦QJxx ♣AKJx which virtually everyone opens. While it is reasonable to pass borderline hands when there is a rebid problem, this hand is not really borderline by modern standards. Give partner for example:

 

♠KQxxx

♥xxx

♦Kxx

♣xx

 

and you have reasonable play for 4♠. Obviously this is a nicely fitting hand, but it doesn't have any particularly weird distribution or very many points. So you really do want to open the hand given.

 

As to what to open with this distribution, there are some folks who will open 1♦ planning to rebid clubs. I really dislike this style. Some of the problems include playing in the wrong partial when partner corrects to diamonds on 3-3, 2-2, or even 2-3 in the minors, making it riskier for partner to raise diamonds invitationally to the three-level on three-card support, and potentially missing a big club fit if opponents interfere in the auction (obviously opening clubs could miss a big diamond fit, but given you have more clubs than diamonds if you have a ten card minor fit it's more likely to be in clubs).

 

Assuming you choose to open 1♣, over 1♦ you have an easy 2♦ rebid. Over 1♥ there is something of a style issue. Some people like a 1NT rebid to promise doubleton support (at least) in partner's suit and a raise of partner's major to almost always promise four card support. If this is your style, you rebid 2♣. Others prefer a 2♣ rebid to promise six, are happy raising partner's major on many balanced hands with three-card support, and have no problem rebidding 1NT with a singleton in partner's suit. If this is your style, rebid 1NT. Over 1♠ I don't think there is really a style issue -- raise to 2♠. The singleton heart gives you potential ruffs in the shorter hand, which more than compensates for the "missing" fourth trump.

[ArtK78]

This hand is a "wtp" opening bid. I cannot even conceive of the idea of passing this hand.

 

Even in the 50's, this would be a full opening bid - 12 HCP, 2 points for the singleton, 2 quick tricks. Not even borderline. Furthermore, the hand has good suits - JT9 of spades, QJTx of diamonds, AKJxx of clubs. This hand is better than most minimum opening bids.

 

As for players who open the bidding light and pass responder's one-over-one response, the less said about them the better.

[jtfanclub]

babalu, what you stated is bidding theory of the 1950s. These days the hand shown is not even a marginal opener. It's a full-fledged sound opener.

You'd have a hard time convincing me that people in the 50's didn't understand the value of JT9 and QJT7.

 

Even in basic Goren count, this is a 14, more than enough to open.

[Apollo81]

As dealer, I have no reason to count distribution points, or shortage points for the heart.

 

BTW, even if you don't believe everyone here, the ACBL teaching materials instruct the student to count distribution points when deciding whether to open.

[neilkaz]

I would honestly open

 

♠ JT9

♥ xxx

♦ QJTx

♣ AKJ

 

which is MUCH worse than your given hand and suspect that if I make my example hand a poll, the majority here will open it and that the majority of today's experts, many of whom post here will agree with me. Not everyone will open my example, but I'd expect that 60% will if not a bit more.

 

Why ? Well inspite of being a flat 12 count, it has two fast tricks and those 10's are attached to Jacks. Look at the pointed suits and they can provide tricks if they fit a bit with PD.

[han]

I stated I would pass the hand as dealer, and the assumption is that SAYC was being played.

 

This hand contains 2 quick tricks,

 

That's good enough right?

 

a singleton heart

 

That also good right? Shape is better than no shape.

 

and the jack of spades is a wasted honour.

 

I don't think J109 is a worth less than 1 point, do you?

 

I noticed you didn't mention that lovely club suit and the excellent spots. If you want an honest evaluation of the hand then you should look at the plusses as well as the minusses.

 

Regarding the rebid:

 

If we open 1C we have an easy rebid if partner responds 1D (bid 2D) or 1S (bid 2S) or if partner bids anything higher. The only slightly awkward situation occurs when partner bids 1H. I would rebid 1NT but if you frown upon rebidding 1NT with a stiff you could bid 2C. Anyway, it is not good advice to let the fear of a possible rebid probably deter you from opening a perfectly sound opening hand.

[helene_t]

The reason I ask is because I have seen many partners open 1 minor and when I answer 1 heart or 1 sapde , they simply pass. Just yesterday, a partner passed me at 1 spade when I held 18 hcp. He had one of these very light opening hands and commented that **he saw not future, so he passed**. I thought it was the role of the unpassed responder to see the future.

That p of yours obviously didn't think it was an opening either. He opened for some reason and then he felt guilty about it.

[jdonn]

Don't have much to add to the others. I really didn't think any bridge player passes hands like this, but I learn there are new styles out there every day :)

[pclayton]

I would honestly open

 

♠ JT9

♥ xxx

♦ QJTx

♣ AKJ

 

which is MUCH worse than your given hand and suspect that if I make my example hand a poll, the majority here will open it and that the majority of today's experts, many of whom post here will agree with me. Not everyone will open my example, but I'd expect that 60% will if not a bit more.

 

Why ? Well inspite of being a flat 12 count, it has two fast tricks and those 10's are attached to Jacks. Look at the pointed suits and they can provide tricks if they fit a bit with PD.

Deja Vu (nearly) lol.

 

Last night with Gnome I picked up: JT9, Kxx, T8xx, AKJ and opened. We got to a skinny 3N when he held: Ax, ATx, KJxx, Txxx. It rolled with a moderately favorable opening lead away from the ♥QJ9xxx and a little luck in diamonds to produce three tricks.

 

The other table passed my hand and came in after our teammates opened. Some silly undoubled partial that went -3 undoubled was played I think.

[Flame]

From your questions you seems like a new player (no more then few years) with a good ability to be a good player. My advce to you is this, spend some time learning the game as it is playey by good players before you make your set of rules.

To your questions just bid like we teach ibeginingers there is no change.

Open 1C, support 1D to 2D, and rebid 2C when partner 1 else then D.

[kenrexford]

I'd open 1♣ and then:

 

After 1♦, 2♦ is obvious

After 1♥, 2♣ or 1♠ for me, depending on partner

After 1♠, 2♠ (rebid 3♣ after 2NT)

[the hog]

As all have stated this is a clear cut opening. Personallly I open 1D and rebid 2C over 1H.

If I open 1C then over 1D 2 is obvious. Over 1S 2S is obvious and over 1H I rebid 1NT. (If pd objects, the C suit is good enough for 2C).

Passing is losing bridge

[neilkaz]

All this is for IMPs as I rarely ever play MP anymore.

 

I dislike the 1♦ 2♣ style with 4-5 as it distorts the minor suit length and can really cause issues in competitive auctions at the 3 level and occ land you in a ♦ game or slam when you'd prefer ♣.

 

So after opening 1♥ you have to tell the smallest lie.

 

For me 1♠ is out of the question on a 3 carder unless my hand was something like AQJ,x,Qxxx,Kxxxx.

 

1NT is really an undesirable rebid with a stiff in PD's suit (again the auction may get competitive) but with Axx,K,Axxx,Qxxxx at least I have an honor for him if he rebids ♥.

 

With a hand like JTx,x,Kxxx,AKJxx I have a nice 5 card ♣ suit and wouldn't consider anything other than a 2♣ rebid. If PD thinks I have 6, he won't be disappointed to see a good 5 carder and the tricks it may produce.

 

Give me Qxx,x, AQJx,Kxxxx and my 4 card D suit is really good and my ♣'s poorish and most certainly not rebiddable if I open 1♣ so with this I'll open 1♦ then rebid 2♣.

 

And finally.... Axx,x,KJxx,Axxxx I don't like any rebid and I don't care for opening ♦ and rebiding ♣ with ♦ this weak and acceptable ♣ so I'll bite my tongue and rebid 1NT.

 

Just my opinion and style .. neilkaz ..

[awm]

My feeling is that there is some advantage to bids promising a particular shape. For example:

 

(1) If 1♣-1♥-1NT promises a doubleton heart (at least) then you can have less revealing auctions when responder has six hearts and can blast game. Responder is also safer upgrading some hands with heart length into invites (including hands with 5♥). It can also help on some slam auction evaluations.

 

(2) If 1♣-1♥-2♣ promises six clubs, then this helps responder evaluate a fitting honor for clubs, to make aggressive invites with Hx or Hxx in the suit. It also helps a lot in slam bidding, as responder can now sometimes count six club tricks on the right hand or guarantee a big fit. And you reach better partials when responder has an invitational hand with ♣Hx and can raise instead of bidding notrump.

 

(3) If 1♦-1♥-2♣ promises five or more diamonds, it helps with invitational sequences (responder can jump to 3♦ with three-card support) and can also help in some slam auctions.

 

So my point is that while bidding minimum 3145 hands differently depending on the quality of the suits seems to make some sense on the surface, you end up not getting any of these three nice guarantees! I'd rather pick some particular distortion (my preference being the 1NT rebid on singleton) and stick to it, so that in the other two cases we get the advantages mentioned.

[mike777]

In a recent post, I stated that I would not have opened the following hand as dealer, and some disagreed:

 

♠   JT9

♥  3

♦  QJT7

♣  AKJxx

 

I stated I would pass the hand as dealer, and the assumption is that SAYC was being played.

 

This hand contains 2 quick tricks, a singleton heart, and the jack of spades is a wasted honour.

 

As dealer, I have no reason to count distribution points, or shortage points fpr the heart.

 

To open a hand, shouldn't opener have a sound rebid?

 

So I would like to pose the following questions:

 

a) do you open? if so, what is your opening bid?

 

:rolleyes: What do you rebid if partner answers 1 diamond?

 

c) What do you rebid if partner answers 1 heart?

 

d) What do you rebid if partner answers 1 spade?

 

I suppose if I had to open perhaps I would open 1 diamond and then rebid 2 clubs.

 

 

The reason I ask is because I have seen many partners open 1 minor and when I answer 1 heart or 1 sapde , they simply pass.  Just yesterday, a partner passed me at 1 spade when I held 18 hcp.  He had one of these very light opening hands and commented that **he saw not future, so he passed**.  I thought it was the role of the unpassed responder to see the future.

The forum has told us the days of not opening this hand type in first or second seat and expecting to win have come and gone about 50 years ok....sigh :)

 

I hope some can agree to pass this hand and still win either by:

1) non top class events

2) top class events but with top class judgement.

3) I have no proof.

4) this is an excellent hand to discuss, a good 12 hcp hand with shape and 2 suits.

5) this is the type of hand and discussion that convinced me when I came back to bridge that discussing what an opening one bid or preempt bid is the highest priority in discussing a system....there are other important issues but this is number one.

6) all the good players in the forum(much better than me) open this hand.

[neilkaz]

My feeling is that there is some advantage to bids promising a particular shape. For example:

 

(1) If 1♣-1♥-1NT promises a doubleton heart (at least) then you can have less revealing auctions when responder has six hearts and can blast game. Responder is also safer upgrading some hands with heart length into invites (including hands with 5♥). It can also help on some slam auction evaluations.

 

(2) If 1♣-1♥-2♣ promises six clubs, then this helps responder evaluate a fitting honor for clubs, to make aggressive invites with Hx or Hxx in the suit. It also helps a lot in slam bidding, as responder can now sometimes count six club tricks on the right hand or guarantee a big fit. And you reach better partials when responder has an invitational hand with ♣Hx and can raise instead of bidding notrump.

 

(3) If 1♦-1♥-2♣ promises five or more diamonds, it helps with invitational sequences (responder can jump to 3♦ with three-card support) and can also help in some slam auctions.

 

So my point is that while bidding minimum 3145 hands differently depending on the quality of the suits seems to make some sense on the surface, you end up not getting any of these three nice guarantees! I'd rather pick some particular distortion (my preference being the 1NT rebid on singleton) and stick to it, so that in the other two cases we get the advantages mentioned.

Great post, awm ! OK now for those of you who rebid 1NT with a stiff in PD's major, how often do you give him a 3 card raise rather than 1NT ?

[joker_gib]

It would never cross my mind to pass this ! ;)

[babalu1997]

My feeling is that there is some advantage to bids promising a particular shape. For example:

 

So my point is that while bidding minimum 3145 hands differently depending on the quality of the suits seems to make some sense on the surface, you end up not getting any of these three nice guarantees! I'd rather pick some particular distortion (my preference being the 1NT rebid on singleton) and stick to it, so that in the other two cases we get the advantages mentioned.

thanks everyone for the different ideas, and as AWM states it is not quite simple.

My question, was really what do you do after you open the hand, and there have been many interesting procedures by very experienced players.

 

Again making reference to the original hand, which was:

 

♠ JT9

♥ 3

♦ QJT7

♣ AKJxx

 

There was a time when I would open this hand, but now i would not, especially with a pick up partner. Does that mean I have to forever hold my peace? No.

I think i have a rebid after I pass, and here are the 2 situations:

 

pass- 1 heart by opp - p- 2h by opp - DBL BY ME

 

pass-pass-pass- 1 heart by opp- DBL BY ME

 

pass- pass- 1 heart by partner - pass - 1nt force by me

 

If partner opens anything else my rebid is easy.

[babalu1997]

5) this is the type of hand and discussion that convinced me when I came back to bridge that discussing what an opening one bid or preempt bid is the highest priority in discussing a system....there are other important issues but this is number one.

There was a time when I had nothing to write on my profile, so I wrote jokes.

 

That did not work, so I started having alphabet soup for lunch, 201, nmf, fsf, etc...

 

Most auctions are contested so I truly stopped caring about the conventions-- the alphabet soup is no guarantee that the bids are consistent with the conventions anyway.

 

So now I have in my profile-- sound opens, overcalls, sane doubles and redoubles.

 

And yes, I would rather know how much the hcp and distribution points in partners hands are worth.

[kfay]

My feeling is that there is some advantage to bids promising a particular shape. For example:

 

So my point is that while bidding minimum 3145 hands differently depending on the quality of the suits seems to make some sense on the surface, you end up not getting any of these three nice guarantees! I'd rather pick some particular distortion (my preference being the 1NT rebid on singleton) and stick to it, so that in the other two cases we get the advantages mentioned.

thanks everyone for the different ideas, and as AWM states it is not quite simple.

My question, was really what do you do after you open the hand, and there have been many interesting procedures by very experienced players.

 

Again making reference to the original hand, which was:

 

♠ JT9

♥ 3

♦ QJT7

♣ AKJxx

 

There was a time when I would open this hand, but now i would not, especially with a pick up partner. Does that mean I have to forever hold my peace? No.

I think i have a rebid after I pass, and here are the 2 situations:

 

pass- 1 heart by opp - p- 2h by opp - DBL BY ME

 

pass-pass-pass- 1 heart by opp- DBL BY ME

 

pass- pass- 1 heart by partner - pass - 1nt force by me

 

If partner opens anything else my rebid is easy.

If you pass this hand, partner will never believe you have an opener.

 

I'm sorry for putting it like this but the very thought that someone passes this hand 1st seat makes me LOL. You will be a MUCH better bridge player if you open these. Because not opening them, frankly, is awful.

 

Seeing as how there are minimum opening hands that partner can hold that makes slam a 50% shot or better... etc. etc. etc.

 

There are a million reasons that have already been stated as to whether to open this hand. And yes probably even Al Roth would have opened it. Doesn't that say something?

 

My advice is take the advice of others and open.

 

 

I just got to reading the bottom of the quoted post and all of these actions are fine but partner's definitely going to 'expect' 4S from you since you're not even under a lot of pressure. You can describe a hand with 3 spades and the minors and short hearts much more easily if you just open! Now you're trying to catch up for not opening and it's just not really the best option.

 

What are you doing if the opponents bid spades? Or diamonds? I'd hardly like to double then and we might have game on in a number or strains.

[jtfanclub]

pass- pass- 1 heart by partner - pass - 1nt force by me

OK, your partner opens 1 heart

You say 1NT

Your partner will say 2♣ about 75% of the time (3+ cards).

 

What do you say now?