Cascade Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 [hv=d=e&v=b&s=s8hq7642dj975ca83]133|100|Scoring: MP(Pass) Pass (1♠) Dbl(Pass) ?[/hv] 1. Does anyone think we are worth more than 2♥? 2. Say you bid 2♥ ... ... the auction continues (Pass) Pass (1♠) Dbl(Pass) 2♥ (Pass) 4♥(Pass) ? Do we bid some more now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfay Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 Double Negative Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 Maximum 2♥ bid, and I don't think bidding over 4♥ is possible unless you are inconsistent. Partner could have cuebid before raising if he wanted, this 4♥ bid is often taking a bit of a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 I think I would bid 3♥ although it's close. Having bid 2♥, only Futile Willy would bid over 4♥. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
655321 Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 I would have bid 3♥, but 2♥ is not terrible. No, I would not go to the 5 level now, so pass. I don't like to force partner to choose between playing 2♥ and playing 6♥ on these auctions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 Ditto Josh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerclee Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 I would bid 3♥, and bidding over 4♥ is wow-bad. I am a little paranoid about my stiff spade though, but if partner is strong and balanced, he can just bid 3N. If he has a strong 1-suiter, my hand is definitely good enough to this this way. From 4♥, I assume partner is something like 19-20 balanced with 4 hearts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkaz Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 2♥ or 3♥ is fine with me but bidding over 4♥ is not since opener may be stretching a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 2♥ for starters. What's so inconsistent about bidding only 2♥ and making a move past 4♥? Pard has made a value bid and we have an absolute max. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 No/No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 2♥ for starters. What's so inconsistent about bidding only 2♥ and making a move past 4♥? Pard has made a value bid and we have an absolute max. His value bid is not supposed to be enough for slam opposite our max. There was plenty of room to explore if he thought slam was possible opposite a maximum 2♥ bid. Your comment could be applied to the auction 1♥ 2♥ 4♥ as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 Maximum 2♥ bid. 3♥ is an overbid, but not a large one. Clear pass over 4♥. Any bid over 4♥ would be a breach of partnership discipline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 2♥ for starters. What's so inconsistent about bidding only 2♥ and making a move past 4♥? Pard has made a value bid and we have an absolute max. His value bid is not supposed to be enough for slam opposite our max. There was plenty of room to explore if he thought slam was possible opposite a maximum 2♥ bid. Your comment could be applied to the auction 1♥ 2♥ 4♥ as well. Construct a hand suitable for 4♥ please Josh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 Everyone agrees with me but I take the flak as usual ;) Kx AKJxxx AK Qxx I actually don't think it need be quite that good, as I said before it's usually taking a chance that partner isn't 100% broke. Can I ask what part of my last post you dispute? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 2♥, and then bidding after 4♥, has no meaning. So, it seems to me that the only sane question is whether 2♥ was the right bid. To think of anything but passing 4♥ means that you disagree with 2♥, which is fine -- stand by that -- or that that you think partner lacks vision for his 4♥ call. What about 2♥? It would have been nice to play mini-lebensohl here (1NT as "lebensohl," or herbert negative). That would make a 2♥ call include this hand. Instead, we are playing an approach where we have two calls, eac of which has to carry too much water. In that scenario, it is good to have a general approach. It would also be nice to have a two-way takeout approach, such as 1NT as a weak takeout, such that a double shows real values. But, that's another discussion. We are stuck with what we have. It is also worth noting that problems like this are more easily solved if the takeout double requires sound values, especially in relation to the degree to which the double forces the two-level. When making light takeout doubles, these hands are sacrificed, or at least negatively impacted. At IMP scoring, this would be easy for me -- 3♥. Doubling 1♠ opposite a passed hand at IMP scoring serves up too little potential gain if the double is weak, and it sacrifices too much in potential gain if Advancer can rely on actual values. My love for IMP bidding may have untoward impact on my thinking here, or at least my twisted opinion of effective IMP bidding (LOL), but my opinion is that one should not double a third-seat 1♠ opening unless one is prepared to have partner bid 3♥, specifically hearts, with a hand like this. "Prepared" could mean "prepared to laugh it off if sawed off." But, prepared. So, I would bid 3♥ with this hand. Having failed to bid what I consider to be the correct bid, I'm not rescuing myself. The harm from insanity late in the auction is too costly on the partnership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted April 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 [hv=d=e&v=b&n=sa3hak83dkq83ckq6&s=s8hq7642dj975ca83]133|200|Scoring: MP(Pass) Pass (1♠) Dbl(Pass) 2♥ (Pass) 4♥(Pass) Pass (Pass)[/hv] As you can see slam is pretty reasonable. Trumps 4-0 or diamonds 4-1 will break it. Actually you will survive some of the 4-1 diamond breaks - stiff ace or singleton in the hand not on lead. So who didn't bid enough? Does this convince you to not bid 2♥ or that bidding on over 4♥ might be reasonable or should North do something other than 4♥? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 [hv=d=e&v=b&n=sa3hak83dkq83ckq6&s=s8hq7642dj975ca83]133|200|Scoring: MP(Pass) Pass (1♠) Dbl(Pass) 2♥ (Pass) 4♥(Pass) Pass (Pass)[/hv] As you can see slam is pretty reasonable. Trumps 4-0 or diamonds 4-1 will break it. Actually you will survive some of the 4-1 diamond breaks - stiff ace or singleton in the hand not on lead. So who didn't bid enough? Does this convince you to not bid 2♥ or that bidding on over 4♥ might be reasonable or should North do something other than 4♥? Why not 2s over 2h? Does it not show a bigger hand than 4h? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 So who didn't bid enough? Does this convince you to not bid 2♥ or that bidding on over 4♥ might be reasonable or should North do something other than 4♥? I think north should cuebid but 4♥ is not the worst bid ever. It's not hard to imagine though that Qxxxx and an ace and you are getting veeeeeery close to slam, so 4♥ is a bit lazy. Another reason to cuebid - maybe find 6♦ if south has xx Qxxxx Axxx xx or so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrexford Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 3♥ by South would do it. That said, Josh has provided a clear 2♥ call where slam makes. Plus, if your style is such that the South hand is possible, slam is real likely. A 2♠ call should do the trick. Question, though. P-P-1♠-X-P-2♥-P-2♠-P-3♠? This seems right to me, but I'm not sure. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 I don't particularly take issue with it Josh, except that it seems odd that a hand that wants to bid game opposite a near bust can't cooperate in a slam try. Since our 2♥ call can be made on a yarborough, I tend to think that a 4♥ call by pard really shows the goods. I think some examples would be hands like: 1. AQxx, AKxxx, Ax, Kx2. KQxx, AKxxx, Axx, x3. KJx, AKxxx, AQ, Kxx Would you be making a slam try over a 2♥ call with any of these hands? On #2, they need to find the spade duck to break 6, but otherwise slam is pretty good on the others. By the way, with your example, the opponents are mighty quiet with 10 spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 1. AQxx, AKxxx, Ax, Kx2. KQxx, AKxxx, Axx, x3. KJx, AKxxx, AQ, Kxx Would you be making a slam try over a 2♥ call with any of these hands? On #2, they need to find the spade duck to break 6, but otherwise slam is pretty good on the others. 1. Yes 2. No (sorry can't bid every 23 point slam....) 3. No (on two finesses, granted of course you want to be there on this auction) By the way, with your example, the opponents are mighty quiet with 10 spades.No, with my example they were mighty quiet with 9 spades. It was the actual hand where they were mighty quiet with 10 spades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkaz Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 N has 21 hcp and a likely working dblton and needs a fitting ace, the Q of ♥ and note responder can have 5♥ and a fitting J and A to have great play for slam. I'd flash the monster hand signal by bidding 2♠ and then bidding my game and catering to responder's caution in not jumping to 3♥ here. Somehow the opps missed their chances to muddy the waters with some ♠ preemption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcD Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 1/ I prefer 3H (slight overbid) rather than 2H which covers too much territory in classic methods (I guess i would bid 2H with 0 points and 5H ) .2/ Do not think partner would bid 4H with a flattish 18-19 and 4 hearts (3H over 2H is enough); rebidding is probably ok but I bid 3H on the 1ST round to avoid facing that problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmunte1 Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 1/ I prefer 3H (slight overbid) rather than 2H which covers too much territory in classic methods (I guess i would bid 2H with 0 points and 5H ) .2/ Do not think partner would bid 4H with a flattish 18-19 and 4 hearts (3H over 2H is enough); rebidding is probably ok but I bid 3H on the 1ST round to avoid facing that problem 100% agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted April 23, 2008 Report Share Posted April 23, 2008 P-P-1♠-X-P-2♥-P-2♠-P-3♠? This seems right to me, but I'm not sure. Any thoughts? This is another hand where an artificial negative over partner's cue bid would work well. I'd like to show both my fifth heart and my diamond suit. However, 3D only promises 4-4, and 3H is non-forcing. I'd bid 3D, which I don't think partner can pass, followed by 4C if I get the chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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