1eyedjack Posted March 13, 2004 Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 I am a bit tired of opponents self-alerting bids and then waiting for me to request an explanation before volunteering one. I know that strictly according to the laws they are behaving correctly. In practice all it does is waste time. I am also tired of self alerting and then getting a request for explanation before I have an opportunity to give one even though I intended to post one before the request hit. As a compromise, I would prefer that if you click on the alert button, an explanation window pops up that you can fill in so that it is posted simultaneously with the bid. It may still not get used by some players, but an improvement for those of us who intend to give an explanation only to get beaten to the punch by a request for explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csdenmark Posted March 13, 2004 Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 Certainly not. - That's what convention cards are for. Look into 'CONV' - if you find nothing - ask opps to load their cc. Else just guess or find some other opps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted March 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 Certainly not. - That's what convention cards are for. Look into 'CONV' - if you find nothing - ask opps to load their cc. Else just guess or find some other opps. And that saves time? Think I will stick to clicking on their bid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRG Posted March 13, 2004 Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 I like the suggested change. It is one I've wanted (I think I might have suggested it). It's not necessary to force a person to enter an explanation, but I think the opportunity should be given before completing the bid (for exactly the reasons given). I also find it annoying when I'm trying to type in an explanation and my explanation disappears because first one opponent and then the other clicks on the bid for an explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csdenmark Posted March 13, 2004 Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 I like the suggested change. It is one I've wanted (I think I might have suggested it). It's not necessary to force a person to enter an explanation, but I think the opportunity should be given before completing the bid (for exactly the reasons given). I also find it annoying when I'm trying to type in an explanation and my explanation disappears because first one opponent and then the other clicks on the bid for an explanation.As far as I remember you can only query once at a time. Next time - if not responded yet - you will have the information query has been made already waiting for response. John as a recognized expert by BBO it is not good enough to support non-committed play. You ought to - like I do - tell all that in bridge convention cards are the serious way for exchange of system information until 3NT. I assume you never play a game yourself unless according to a loaded convention card. John please tell me how many championships you have won or just been able to participate in without a correct convention card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted March 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 I shall let John respond for himself, but for the avoidance of doubt I would add a few further comments of my own: 1) The convention card as currently designed for BBO does not permit for all agreements to be pre-disclosed, whether alertable or not. This is no different from face to face bridge, which is why a request for information is permitted in both on-line and face-to-face bridge. Personally I am not happy with the CC design, but that is a personal view and irrelevant to this issue. There is no optimal design that either satisfy all nor would remove any need for ancillary questions. 2) Subject to point 3 below I applaud the requirement to complete convention cards. I see no reason, however, why one solution to a problem should be pursued to the exclusion of others. 3) csdenmark's responses assume that players at the table are playing a "serious" game in regular partnerships. I made no such stipulation in my original post.I regularly play with pickup partners for relatively few hands, against opponents in like situation. To expect either side to complete a CC in such situations is unrealistic, and yet there is plenty of scope in a matter of a few seconds to agree on some alertable conventions. 4) Even if I have completed a convention card I expect alertable situations to arise that are not covered by the CC and on those occasions I would STILL like the opportunity to disclose the meaning simultaneously with the bid, and I would like my opponents afforded that same opportunity. 5) Even if the explanation is available on the CC, in the pursuit of active ethics I would expect the conventional caller to go out of his way to make the opponents aware of the full implications, and this aim would be furthered by maximising the methods and opportunities for disclosure, if necessary disclosing the same information by alternative means (ie CC and explanation). This is perhaps an opportunity that is not available in face to face bridge because of the possibility of UI. It is clear that csdenmark has a "bee in his bonnet" about a general failure to complete CCs, which may be valid, but hijacking this thread for that purpose is simply not relevant to the points originally raised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csdenmark Posted March 13, 2004 Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 Sorry if you think I am hijacking anything. I thought such not possible. Sorry also for the word 'non-serious' which I have modified into 'non-committed'. I am simply not sure of the precise meaning in english and I think it will help very little to explain my meaning in danish. I agree with you of much to poor performance on BBO of convention cards. As far I have understood that topic is of low priority - so we need to live with that. But poor performance is no reason for not trying to do what is possible and try to use the correct tools. Then the habit will be there if we some day will be lucky of having better convention cards. I rejected your suggestion because so many in earlier threads have been advocating the use of the alert box in many different formats and ways. Not as an additional tool but replacing the bridge standard. That is completely ridicoulos - the way is to use convention cards in a way suited for online bridge play. The performance on ZONE is absolutely excellent - an there it is much more standard to use convention cards - even for basic SAYC-play. I certainly dont reject the use of the alert box. I normally explain my bids even they are to be found in loaded cc. I have standard texts for inserting - so no problem here. We also frequently discuss and provide system information to opps. or partner. To play bridge based on avoidable misunderstandings - is not to play bridge at all. I would like all to convert all their very strange notations on their ID and instead create convention cards for those features. Then they have something real to agree on - and all will apply to good standards. Then you just need to alert and explain if you play with a pick up partner and you needed to agree to something different. So easy is that. As some knows already - all have 2 default convention cards filled out with BBO standard system. From my WEB-sites they have an option to download a package containing 20 convention cards ready to use or to modify from. They are systems acc. to origin. I have also created 4 sites with quick guides for defense of systems. I therefore think there is no really excuse for not to apply to good and correct bridge standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRG Posted March 13, 2004 Report Share Posted March 13, 2004 Claus, I have NEVER played face-to-face at a bridge club or in a tournament without a filled out convention card. I have occasionally met a pair in a tournament without one, but I think it has been perhaps 2 or 3 times in the last 20 years. On the other hand, something interesting happened on Friday at the bridge club in San Jose (Costa Rica): The person running it is the chief tournament director for the Central America and Carribean Bridge Federation. He has always given a short lecture before the Friday game starts (generally aimed at the intermediate level players). This week he started a series of lessons on filling out the Convention Card!!! It has always bothered me that almost nobody at the local club has a filled out CC, so I applaud what he is doing (he said EVERYONE should have a filled out CC). Having said that, a filled out convention card does NOT relieve one of the obligation to alert! BOTH are required. I agree with you that every pair SHOULD have a CC, but I am also guilty of not having a CC on the odd time I have played with a pick-up partner online (most people I have played with have posted one and then we have made a few changes). Generally, though, I don't play with pickup partners very often - I don't find it much fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackest_k Posted March 26, 2004 Report Share Posted March 26, 2004 Is there a web page somebody could be directed to which would help somebody fill in a convention card? I have to admit i don't have one. the problem exists though that there is a vast number of conventions out thereIf anyone knows them all i salute them. when playing casual bridge it is quite possible that your partner is not aware that a bid is using a convention sometimes it would be desirable to alert them as well. ok i know that might be considered outrageous but i think the distinction should be made between a casual game with a casual partner against a tourney where all rules apply perhaps a new table type "just for fun" for those of us wanting to play and not minding conventions being explained or other infringements. warm regards john Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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