Forcing Pass?

[awm]

3♣-X-5♣-Pass

 

Is this pass forcing?

 

Edited: What I mean is, do you prefer to play this pass as forcing in an established partnership. Not "would you assume this pass is forcing opposite a random BBO expert?"

[Free]

no, why would it be??? :)

[han]

What kind of question is this?

[jdonn]

This is not nearly as crazy a question as it would seem to someone who hasn't thought about it before. There is a very very good case for playing pass as forcing. But still it takes an agreement, you can't just assume it.

 

I know several experts who play this as forcing.

[han]

OK, so is the question instead "do you prefer to play pass as forcing here?"?

[jdonn]

OK, so is the question instead "do you prefer to play pass as forcing here?"?

I never have played it before so it's hard to say. Lets say when I first heard of it I thought it was insane. Now I bet if I got into a discussion about it with someone who feels strongly it should be forcing, my mind could be changed.

[kfay]

This is the least forcing pass I've ever seen.

[cherdano]

For some reason it makes more sens to me to play (3♣) 3x (5♣) P as forcing.

[pclayton]

Pass should be forcing if the 5♣ bidder was a passed hand. Otherwise, only by agreement.

[sceptic]

If opps knew you play this as forcing, would it not be easy to always bid 5 of a minor after the double?

[CSGibson]

If opps knew you play this as forcing, would it not be easy to always bid 5 of a minor after the double?

That's kind of faulty logic.

 

They are bidding 5 clubs when they think they are making 5 clubs whether you always have a forcing pass or not.

 

If they aren't making 5 clubs, then the forcing pass agreement actually makes it less appealing to jump up the levels on hands you are pre-sacrificing because it lowers the chances of you actually buying the contract undoubled (small chance that it might be) or having them go on to a good contract.

[benlessard]

Not FP. I think FP are underused so im sure there is plenty of sequence where its not FP but should be FP, however i dont think this one is one of them.

[effervesce]

NF. :)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

no, we dont play it as forcing.

 

I see some merrits, if the vulnerability is right,

i.e. they are green, we are red.

At any other vulnerability, those merrits loose a lot

of weight.

 

It also depends on what are your min. requirements

for a t/o in direct seat, if you require a good opening

to act, say +15, and you follow those guidelines rigid,

than playing pass as forcing should work out ok most

of the time, but most partnership make the t/o lighter

not stronger.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[kfay]

Pass should be forcing if the 5♣ bidder was a passed hand. Otherwise, only by agreement.

I disagree with this. Then we're also a PH.... possibly a worse one.

[pclayton]

Pass should be forcing if the 5♣ bidder was a passed hand. Otherwise, only by agreement.

I disagree with this. Then we're also a PH.... possibly a worse one.

Do I need an opening hand to make a FP?

[whereagles]

I don't think

 

6♣ dbl 7♣ pass

 

is forcing, let alone 3-X-5-p :P

[kfay]

Pass should be forcing if the 5♣ bidder was a passed hand. Otherwise, only by agreement.

I disagree with this. Then we're also a PH.... possibly a worse one.

Do I need an opening hand to make a FP?

Obviously not. I'm just saying that I'd hope to have SOMETHING. And it's quite possible that I don't.

 

Maybe LHO made a heavy preempt and RHO passed a limitish hand 1st seat and now is presuming partner doesn't have much.

 

Forcing pass is 99% leading to disaster here. Double around 60%.

[inquiry]

I do not play this as forcing.

[cherdano]

I wouldn't be surprised if Eric Kokish recommends to play this sequence as forcing.

[pclayton]

I wouldn't be surprised if Eric Kokish recommends to play this sequence as forcing.

I'm pretty sure he's been advocating this for at least 20 years.

[jdonn]

Pass should be forcing if the 5♣ bidder was a passed hand. Otherwise, only by agreement.

I disagree with this. Then we're also a PH.... possibly a worse one.

Do I need an opening hand to make a FP?

Obviously not. I'm just saying that I'd hope to have SOMETHING. And it's quite possible that I don't.

 

Maybe LHO made a heavy preempt and RHO passed a limitish hand 1st seat and now is presuming partner doesn't have much.

 

Forcing pass is 99% leading to disaster here. Double around 60%.

Do you know that or do you just 'feel' it?

 

It's impossible for pass to not be forcing if rho is a passed hand. That means they have a random preempt and a passed hand trying to make 11 out of 13 tricks! Us being a passed hand is a red herring. Whatever we don't have, partner has.

[kfay]

It's impossible for pass to not be forcing if rho is a passed hand. That means they have a random preempt and a passed hand trying to make 11 out of 13 tricks! Us being a passed hand is a red herring. Whatever we don't have, partner has.

I've been thinking about this and I guess I don't understand what you're saying.

 

Are you saying that if we pass we're saying 'partner bid whatever it was you were going to bid regardless of whether we agreed this is a forcing pass or not.' or are you saying that if we have a few scrappy points we have to double to prevent partner from going to slam. Because I don't see the difference. If you're saying that when we have 0 points partner must have 22+ real so he's going to take a bid after we pass then, sure, I agree that pass is forcing. But that doesn't make it a forcing pass.

[P_Marlowe]

Pass should be forcing if the 5♣ bidder was a passed hand. Otherwise, only by agreement.

I disagree with this. Then we're also a PH.... possibly a worse one.

Do I need an opening hand to make a FP?

Obviously not. I'm just saying that I'd hope to have SOMETHING. And it's quite possible that I don't.

 

Maybe LHO made a heavy preempt and RHO passed a limitish hand 1st seat and now is presuming partner doesn't have much.

 

Forcing pass is 99% leading to disaster here. Double around 60%.

Hi,

 

you argue with extreme hands, which is certainly

not the most likely scenario.

At least if one also keeps in mind, that preempts

get lighter every day.

 

A forcing pass will lead sometimes to 5Cx=instead

of 5C, but more often to 5Cx-1 instead of 5C-1.

 

If the frequency makes playing FP a equal proposition,

I dont know, but you gain the ability to better judge

slam prospects.

 

I dont play FP, but if I think longer about it, I think

one could convince me, that it will at least break even.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jdonn]

It's impossible for pass to not be forcing if rho is a passed hand. That means they have a random preempt and a passed hand trying to make 11 out of 13 tricks! Us being a passed hand is a red herring. Whatever we don't have, partner has.

I've been thinking about this and I guess I don't understand what you're saying.

 

Are you saying that if we pass we're saying 'partner bid whatever it was you were going to bid regardless of whether we agreed this is a forcing pass or not.' or are you saying that if we have a few scrappy points we have to double to prevent partner from going to slam. Because I don't see the difference. If you're saying that when we have 0 points partner must have 22+ real so he's going to take a bid after we pass then, sure, I agree that pass is forcing. But that doesn't make it a forcing pass.

It means pass says you want to bid something and have good offense, which is only possible on the logic that we will never (I know I know, nothing is 100%) want to pass the hand out. We know this because because they have a preempt opposite a passed hand at the five level. Double is either a defensive hand or a bad hand. I honestly don't see what's hard about the concept, it is in fact quite logical.

 

I think the comment I made that confused you was in reply to your saying essentially 'so what if rho is a passed hand, his hand could still be better than ours'. I was trying to say that isn't very relevant.