Rhetoric In Warp Drive

[Winstonm]

WASHINGTON — Iran is engaging in a proxy war with the United States in Iraq,

 

The remarks by the ambassador, Ryan C. Crocker, reflected the sharper criticism of Iran by President Bush and his top deputies over the past week, as administration officials have sought to trace many of their troubles in Iraq to Iran.

 

 

We are hearing claims of Iran being more dangerous now than al-Qaeda, that Iran is fighting a proxy war via Iraq, and that Iran is supplying weapons and "special forces" in Iraq.

 

Are these sharp increases in anti-Iranian rhetoric the rumblings before more war or simply a way to deflect criticism from failing Iraq policies?

[blackshoe]

Clearly the Bush Administration is lying to the American Peepul, and Iran is minding their own business and not doing anything at all in, to, or about Iraq. B)

[hrothgar]

Clearly the Bush Administration is lying to the American Peepul, and Iran is minding their own business and not doing anything at all in, to, or about Iraq. B)

Grow up Ed...

 

Winston didn't claim anything of the kind. Its disingenuous to suggest that he did.

 

Its perfectly apparent that the Iran government has an active interest in whats taking place in Iran. This doesn't mean bombing Iran is an appropriate course of action.

 

As an analogy, many folks - myself included - felt that the Baathist regime in Iraq was odious. At the same time, we argued that invading was absolutely idiotic...

[kenberg]

During the 80s the Iranians and the Iraqis killed each other while we watched.

For the past five years Iraqis and Americans killed each other while Iran watched.

I suppose the Iraqis now feel it is their turn to do the watching.

 

I guess we plan to accommodate them. Fair is fair.

[Winstonm]

For me it is getting to be a little like "Chicken Little" with the "sky is falling" claim.

 

First we had WMD and the urgency to invade Iraq. Then we had al-Qaeda in Iraq.

Now the big threat is Iran.

 

Maybe it's just the cynic in me, but this latest rhetoric target feels to me more like making the claims fit the desires - or at minimum creating a diversion from looking too closely at Iraq policy.

[luke warm]

Clearly the Bush Administration is lying to the American Peepul, and Iran is minding their own business and not doing anything at all in, to, or about Iraq. B)

Grow up Ed...

 

Winston didn't claim anything of the kind. Its disingenuous to suggest that he did.

grow up richard... winston does believe the bush administration is lying to the american people and has been doing so all along... it's disingenuous to say otherwise, especially when he's used those exact words

Its perfectly apparent that the Iran government has an active interest in whats taking place in Iran. This doesn't mean bombing Iran is an appropriate course of action.

well that's obviously true, as is its opposite

[Winstonm]

winston does believe the bush administration is lying to the american people

 

You only know what you think I believe - so I wouldn't go around proclaiming your misrepresentations as "gospel".

[matmat]

You only know what you think I believe - so I wouldn't go around proclaiming your misrepresentations as "gospel".

hehe

 

i'm having a princess bride moment.

[jdonn]

You only know what you think I believe - so I wouldn't go around proclaiming your misrepresentations as "gospel".

hehe

 

i'm having a princess bride moment.

Never mess with a Sicilian when death is on the line! Muahahahaha! Muahahahaha! Muahaha - ..........

 

plop

[Echognome]

Never mess with a Sicilian when death is on the line! Muahahahaha! Muahahahaha! Muahaha - ..........

 

plop

Plot reviews told by Donn...

 

And he says "Hey. Don't mess with a Sicilian dude. Not when death is on the line."

 

VIZZINI

             You fell victim to one of the

             classic blunders. The most famous

             is "Never get involved in a land

             war in Asia." But only slightly

             less well known is this: "Never

             go in against a Sicilian when

             death is on the line."

 

He laughs and roars and cackles and whoops and is in all

ways quite cheery until he falls over dead.

 

Edit: Yes. Yes. I know. Pretty nitpicky.

[Winstonm]

(Lukewarm) winston does believe

 

Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means

[matmat]

(Lukewarm) winston does believe

 

Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means

yeah... that's the bell that i heard

[hrothgar]

Clearly the Bush Administration is lying to the American Peepul, and Iran is minding their own business and not doing anything at all in, to, or about Iraq. :)

Grow up Ed...

 

Winston didn't claim anything of the kind. Its disingenuous to suggest that he did.

grow up richard... winston does believe the bush administration is lying to the american people and has been doing so all along... it's disingenuous to say otherwise, especially when he's used those exact words

Its perfectly apparent that the Iran government has an active interest in whats taking place in Iran. This doesn't mean bombing Iran is an appropriate course of action.

well that's obviously true, as is its opposite

Read what I wrote Jimmy...

 

My issue with Ed's post is the way that he is framing Winston's position about Iran.

 

Winston is claiming that the Bush administration is lying to the American people and launching a propaganda war trying to build up support for military action against Iran.

 

For what its worth, I agree with Winston on this point. I think that elements of the Bush administration are vastly over-inflating the threat place by Iran. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they're stupid enough to start bombing Iran before they leave office.

 

Iraq is the convergence point for two of the greatest threats to America in this new century -- al Qaeda and Iran.

 

What a load of crap...

 

This doesn't mean that the Iranian regime is all sweetness and light. I don't know anyone who believes this. Winston certainly didn't suggest it.

 

If you take a look at Ed's original post, he is implying that Winston said that the Iranian regime is harmless. What were the exact words? Oh yes...

 

Iran is minding their own business and not doing anything at all in, to, or about Iraq

 

Thats what I was (fairly specifically) objecting to

[Winstonm]

Winston is claiming that the Bush administration is lying to the American people and launching a propaganda war trying to build up support for military action against Iran.

 

I believe the better way to state this is that the Bush administration has once again altered its reasoning and targeting - where once the purpose was to stop a rogue band of terrorists and their sponsors, al Qaeda, now the focus is on incriminating a neighboring country with no mention of al-Qaeda association or terrorism. The new targets are Iranian "special groups" and Iranian sponsorship of rebel militias.

 

Is the change of emphasis the beginning of justification for bombing Iran or simply reason for prolonging the Iraq intervention?

 

Full disclosure: I do not believe Iran is blameless. I do not believe Iran is without faults.

[luke warm]

winston does believe the bush administration is lying to the american people

 

You only know what you think I believe - so I wouldn't go around proclaiming your misrepresentations as "gospel".

ok then, you tell me... do you, without absolute proof of the matter, have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability that the bush administration is lying to the american people and has been doing so all along?

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means

maybe not... your answer to the above will help

[Winstonm]

ok then, you tell me... do you, without absolute proof of the matter, have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability that the bush administration is lying to the american people and has been doing so all along?

 

There is a circumstantial thread that runs through this administration's actions.

I can only recognize the actions and speculate on the reasons.

 

The labeling, I will leave to you.

[luke warm]

ok then, you tell me... do you, without absolute proof of the matter, have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability that the bush administration is lying to the american people and has been doing so all along?

 

There is a circumstantial thread that runs through this administration's actions.

I only can recognize the actions and speculate on the reasons.

 

The labeling, I will leave to you.

i wasn't labeling anything, i was just asking a question... i can't force you to answer it, and i wouldn't want to force an answer, but i was hoping for one

 

richard said (which is pretty much what i said):

Winston is claiming that the Bush administration is lying to the American people and launching a propaganda war trying to build up support for military action against Iran. 

 

For what its worth, I agree with Winston on this point.  I think that elements of the Bush administration are vastly over-inflating the threat place by Iran.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if they're stupid enough to start bombing Iran before they leave office.

so that's at least two of us who are under the impression that you think bush is or has been all along lying to us... maybe we're both wrong - to find out if we are is the reason for my question

[hrothgar]

winston does believe the bush administration is lying to the american people

 

You only know what you think I believe - so I wouldn't go around proclaiming your misrepresentations as "gospel".

ok then, you tell me... do you, without absolute proof of the matter, have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability that the bush administration is lying to the american people and has been doing so all along?

In short, yes....

 

I am quite confident that the senior elements of the Bush administration lied in order to launch a military attack against Iraq.

 

Moreover, the administration launched a massive propaganda effort to convince the American people that Iraq was directly involve in the 911 attacks.

 

Last, but not least, the administration actively discouraged any kind of objective debate on this subject. Senior decision makers within the Bush administration were arguing in favor of overthrowing Saddam Hussein back in the late 90s. They seized on 911 as an opportunity to achieve this goal.

[luke warm]

winston does believe the bush administration is lying to the american people

 

You only know what you think I believe - so I wouldn't go around proclaiming your misrepresentations as "gospel".

ok then, you tell me... do you, without absolute proof of the matter, have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability that the bush administration is lying to the american people and has been doing so all along?

In short, yes....

 

I am quite confident that the senior elements of the Bush administration lied in order to launch a military attack against Iraq.

 

Moreover, the administration launched a massive propaganda effort to convince the American people that Iraq was directly involve in the 911 attacks.

 

Last, but not least, the administration actively discouraged any kind of objective debate on this subject. Senior decision makers within the Bush administration were arguing in favor of overthrowing Saddam Hussein back in the late 90s. They seized on 911 as an opportunity to achieve this goal.

i happen to agree with you... maybe originally he really *was* convinced there were WMD there, maybe he wasn't... but i think it's obvious that since then all he's done is defend the invasion, using whatever justification seems handy at the time

[Winstonm]

If I had Richard's IQ (which is surely 160+), I might be as confident as he in my declarations. But I don't and am not. Hence, my reluctance to claim fact or label.

 

That said, the actions suggest to me an orchestrated presentation of agenda rather than an attempt to present undiluted facts.

 

Last, but not least, the administration actively discouraged any kind of objective debate on this subject.

 

This, I believe, is the crux of the matter. Regardless of subject matter, from scientific inquiry to weapons of mass destruction, this administration has worked to actively surpress counter viewpoints and arguments - which leaves no choice but to accept their word as the undebatable truth.

 

I am not willing to do that.

[mike777]

As usual Winston you get to the heart of the matter.

 

We have had House elections since 2001/2002.

We have had Senate elections since then

We had Presidential race since then

 

 

If Bush and his ilk lied/over and over lied, cheated.....propaganda......use your phrase here, and sent us to war and kept us in a war in Iraq for 5+ years at some point....we start hating ourselves for not changing things....thus the hate and vulgar comments about so many policymakers around Bush.......And Congress did what....and the American voters overwhelming voted the liar out and did good.....

[kenrexford]

I'm mad that Michaels Johns was voted off. At least that helps my man, David Cook.

[PassedOut]

As usual Winston you get to the heart of the matter.

 

We have had House elections since 2001/2002.

We have had Senate elections since then

We had Presidential race since then

 

 

If Bush and his ilk lied/over and over lied, cheated.....propaganda......use your phrase here, and sent us to war and kept us in a war in Iraq for 5+ years at some point....we start hating ourselves for not changing things....thus the hate and vulgar comments about so many policymakers around Bush.......And Congress did what....and the American voters overwhelming voted the liar out and did good.....

The NYT has an informative article today about how the Bush administration knowingly and agressively pushed lies to the public:

Behind TV Analysts, Pentagon’s Hidden Hand

 

Some Pentagon officials said they were well aware that some analysts viewed their special access as a business advantage. “Of course we realized that,” Mr. Krueger said. “We weren’t naïve about that.”

 

They also understood the financial relationship between the networks and their analysts. Many analysts were being paid by the “hit,” the number of times they appeared on TV. The more an analyst could boast of fresh inside information from high-level Pentagon “sources,” the more hits he could expect. The more hits, the greater his potential influence in the military marketplace, where several analysts prominently advertised their network roles.

 

“They have taken lobbying and the search for contracts to a far higher level,” Mr. Krueger said. “This has been highly honed.”

[Winstonm]

For us in the Vietnam War age bracket, this is not a surprising quote from the above linked article:

 

....few expressed regret for participating in what they regarded as an effort to dupe the American public with propaganda dressed as independent military analysis.

 

The politicization of the military and the intelligence agencies has been going on for years, with each successive administration adding to the obfuscation - the current group seems to have raised this to an artform, unfortunately.

 

But it certainly did not start with Bush and Cheney - even as far back as the Vietnam "body counts" the apparatus has been spewing false information - and I'm sure before then, too.

 

Why do we continue to allow its toleration with the nicety of calling it "spin", why don't we call it what it is - agenda driven propaganda?

 

And why do we tolerate it?

[Al_U_Card]

Remember the Maine?

 

Because they feel sufficiently empowered to lie and get away with it, like they have been for the last century or so.

 

They rig the monetary system to ensure that you have enough debts that you are too preoccupied with keeping solvent for you to pay attention to hard concepts like accountability and responsibility.

 

Look at the statements since 1960. They lie and then cover up the lies with more lies and then "lose" or dispose of documents or even witnesses (mysterious accidents) when scrutiny gets too great. Welcome to the police state. Can't say you weren't warned.