assign the blame please

[jdonn]

Axx

KT

AKxx

AKxx

 

opposite

 

x

xxxx

QTx

QJ9xx

 

west deals, r/r imps

 

(1♠) DBL (2♠) DBL

(P) 3♠ (P) 4♥

P P P

[cherdano]

100% North, the responsive double shows at most 4 hearts and another place to play. Of course the responsive double also shows some values and South's hand has little to do with what he bid, but that wasn't the reason for playing in a 4-2 fit here.

[CSGibson]

I would say that south is culpable. I play that the responsive double should say that south has the minors. With hearts he should just bid them. The responsive double also promises more values than what was shown. After the responsive double, I understand the move toward slam with both minors still in play, especially opposite a potential stiff spade.

 

After 4 hearts, I think N was afraid that any move he made was forward going towards a heart slam, so did the best he could to limit the damage by passing.

 

If S just bids 3 hearts the first time (or 2NT if playing good/bad 2NT), N can bid 3NT, and you live happily ever after.

[pclayton]

Initial double - fine.

 

1. Hate the responsive double. Pretty vile.

 

2. Cue seems foisted with a prime 21.

 

3. 4♥? Handhog central. 4♣ is better.

 

4. Pass. WTF? Never in a million years.

 

North is stupid - South is arrogant.

[CSGibson]

2. Cue seems foisted with a prime 21.

I had to look it up:

 

Foist\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Foisted; p. pr. & vb. n. Foisting.] [Cf. OD. vysten to fizzle, D. veesten, E. fizz, fitchet, bullfist.] To insert surreptitiously, wrongfully, or without warrant;

 

Phil is saying that the cue-bid is unwarranted with a prime 21, according to Mr Miriam Webster.

[Finch]

Initial double = what else?

Responsive double = a polite way of describing this is "aggressive"

Cue bid = what else?

4H = insane

 

Now this is partly a matter of methods, but personally I play that the double shows two places to play, one of which may or may not be hearts (and in one partnership now 2NT by doubler confirms four hearts).

 

Thus 4C by advancer now shows clubs + another suit. Doubler has game forced, so doubler can bid 4H if he has 4 of them and if responder had both minors they can play 5m.

 

Passing 4H = insane. How many hearts does he think the doubler has not to have bid them over 2S?

 

So a joint effort. Depressing because the wild responsive double could have got you to a slightly dodgy slam which might have made.

[helene_t]

The 4♥ bid is ok with me, I think South would not double with more than four hearts.

 

North has a difficult bid over 4♥ but pass is not an option. Maybe he should have bid 3N over the double. Now he must somehow try to show both minors. A non-forcing 4N would be nice but I'm afraid that would be RKC for hearts. Maybe 5N shows this hand.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

North had a plan, make a t/o followed by bidding NT,

why did he stop implementing the plan?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Fluffy]

double 2♠ with 3 quacks? what does 2NT mean?, lebenshol was made for this kind of hand.

 

Passing 4♥ is also very wrong, either you are on a 4-2 fit, or you have a fit in a minor wich probably makes slam.

[brianshark]

I like the t/o double, the cue and the 4♥ bid in context of the previous bidding. I dislike the responsive double and the final pass by north.

 

The final pass must carry by far the greatest proportion of the blame. While you should reasonably expect south to have a king or two extra, you shoulsd not expect more than 4 mediocre hearts. 4441 with concentration in the minors is approximately what I'd expect for south's bidding.

[helene_t]

North had a plan, make a t/o followed by bidding NT,

why did he stop implementing the plan?

Very well put.

[kenrexford]

North should bid 3NT, IMO, but I understand 3♠.

 

South's 4♥ makes absolutely no sense unless South intended this as RKCB for clubs. If he meant that, beautiful bid! I find that VERY unlikely, and only "beautiful" if North "sould obviously know this," again dubious.

 

If I were South, I'd insist post-mortem that this was obviously RKCB for clubs, at least through the first beer. I'd then come clean.

 

The humorous thing, though, after reading all of the comments so far, is that I'm starting to think that 4♥ as RKCB for clubs and 4♠ as RKCB for diamonds actually might be the most useful meaning in this sequence. :)

[Halo]

Key thing for me is that if South had 4C as a natural club bid below game he should have welcomed the chance to use it.

[Finch]

Hi,

 

North had a plan, make a t/o followed by bidding NT,

why did he stop implementing the plan?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Because opposite a hand with enough to make a responsive double, he probably expects to be making a slam.

 

(Which does make the pass of 4H even odder)

[inquiry]

First DOUBLE = what else? No charge

Second DOUBLE = a little too aggressive but is clearly not related to "blame"

CUE-BID = sets game force, maybe find a "right sided" 3NT if partner Qx in spades. I might have tried 3NT, but

=================

 

Up to here, bidding is FINE, if not a little aggressive.

 

4♥ = no, no, no. This is very wrong. This hand is about clubs. Bid 4♣. I think we can all agree that we should tell partner where we live.

 

Pass of 4♥ = no, no, no. Partner can not have five hearts on this auction, at least imho. But north is probably confused because if partner had a minor why in the #$%(@*%^@)$%$ didn't he bid it over 3♠.

 

There could be no silly 4♥ contract if South doesn't bid 4♥. And there could be no silly 4♥ contract if north was "thinking", or if north had simply bid 3NT over the responsive double. Both 4♥ and final PASS were bad. So i will split the blame, but not 50-50. I think south has to bear a bit more than half as I simply can not see bidding that heart suit "twice" (responsive dbl then bid 4♥).

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

North had a plan, make a t/o followed by bidding NT,

why did he stop implementing the plan?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

Because opposite a hand with enough to make a responsive double, he probably expects to be making a slam.

 

(Which does make the pass of 4H even odder)

...

 

It is probably a matter of philosophy, but I try to learn,

sometimes the hard way, to give up on dreams about slams

after opponents opened at the 1 level, and we dont talk

about a 3rd seat opener.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Apollo81]

The worst call by far was the pass of 4♥.

[jdonn]

My main thought reading the responses is a lot of people say

 

"south can't bid 4♥ on this hand!"

"north can't pass, south will only have four hearts!"

 

How are these consistent comments? Is south supposed to bid 4♥ to show four hearts or isn't he?

[han]

Completely agree with Frances's analysis, both 4H and the pass were very wrong.

 

I don't think these two comments contradict eachother Josh. South is not "supposed" to bid 4H with 4 but might do so with 4 good ones. Here the clubs are much better than the hearts and it seems criminal to bypass them.

 

So 4H only shows 4, but a different hand.

 

I suspect that south was worried that partner would not expect 4 hearts for the responsive double. An understandable sentiment but not a good bidding guide.

[helene_t]

North will usually have four hearts for his cuebid while South will usually not have four hearts for his responsive double. So if either player bids 4♥ it is a proposal to play in the 4-3 fit where North will have the four-bagger.

 

This sounds as if South's 4♥ bid was correct. But maybe he should have bid 4♣ on the basis of the theory that if North has four hearts they will be good enough to bid. I don't think so, I think North would raise 4♣ with a 4-card clubs, and only bid 4♥ if he has less than four clubs. And from South's perspective, 4♥ is the best place if North has 4-4 in the rounded suits.

 

So I think 4♥ is the best South can do given his silly responsive double.

[jdonn]

I don't think these two comments contradict eachother Josh. South is not "supposed" to bid 4H with 4 but might do so with 4 good ones. Here the clubs are much better than the hearts and it seems criminal to bypass them.

I agree it's not inherently contradictory, I simply think it's contradictory anyway (I wonder if that makes any sense at all). I mean if south has to bid 4♥ to find a 4-4 fit, then how can he bid anything else when he has four hearts? What if north raises the minor suit, isn't it just too easy to miss a heart fit?

 

Helene, not sure why you think north would usually have four hearts to cuebid. He could, but doesn't it just show any strong hand?

[Finch]

My main thought reading the responses is a lot of people say

 

"south can't bid 4♥ on this hand!"

"north can't pass, south will only have four hearts!"

 

How are these consistent comments? Is south supposed to bid 4♥ to show four hearts or isn't he?

As I explained, I don't think South is supposed to bid 4H just to show 4 of them, I think he is supposed to bid his lowest playable suit. So 4H is wrong on the hand he has when he has a club suit as well.

 

Having said that, he might have doubled on a 3433 with more high cards, in which case 4H would be the correct call. In which case North cannot pass.

 

The main point is that South cannot have 6 hearts and is hugely unlikely to have five hearts, or he would have bid hearts earlier. So North cannot pass.

 

But there's no reason for South to bid 4H on a hand where he has a longer minor.

[jdonn]

Ok I don't think that makes any sense at all on game level but at least I understand what you're saying. Wouldn't that then make the auction impossible from north's perspective? The opponents have guaranteed 8 spades, south should be 2433?

[kenrexford]

Ok I don't think that makes any sense at all on game level but at least I understand what you're saying. Wouldn't that then make the auction impossible from north's perspective? The opponents have guaranteed 8 spades, south should be 2433?

This entire line of thinking, by the way, is why I personally think that 4♥, in theory, should be a club slam move (4♠ being a diamond slam move). The auction cannot possibly go X...3♠...4♥....P If it cannot happen, then 4♥ as natural would make no sense.

 

When 4♥ as natural makes no sense, and when 4♠ as natural CLEARLY makes no sense, and when both minors are in contention, and when some call (3♠) has been made to show extreme values, and when either major call (4♥/4♠) commits to the five-level anyway, then for me that call is a flag (4♥ for clubs, 4♠ for diamonds). When the flag is above four of the focus suit (check), then the flag is RKCB for the agreed suit, on route to five of the agreed suit, as the person making the flag could always have just bid five of the agreed suit himself. This is especially true when four of either suit was an option (it was) and would have been forcing (surely it was).

 

Any time that hearts might provide the ultimate end contract (plausible here), it seems that Advancer must bid a minor (4♣/4♦) and doubler then bid hearts (4♥). In that situation, 4♠ is available as RKCB for the focus minor (the one just bid), and 4♦ over 4♣ is avauilable to refocus/suggest the other minor.

 

Admittedly, this seems to not be CW, nor would I actually expect partner to field this in practice, unless after discussion, which is sometimes what these forums are all about.

[helene_t]

Helene, not sure why you think north would usually have four hearts to cuebid. He could, but doesn't it just show any strong hand?

Without four hearts he might have overcalled 1NT or 2m. But ok, something like xx-Axx-AKxx-AQxx would also be a typical hand.

 

Btw, Frances' treatment looks good, it's just not what I would assume undiscussed. I might be wrong.