game forcing with long minor

[jillybean]

Dealer: North Vul: NS Scoring: IMP ♠ J ♥ Q86 ♦ KQJT86 ♣ J73

 

West North East South

 

 -     1NT   Pass  ?  

 

Whatya gonna do now?

[Finch]

The general question to "game forcing with a long minor opposite a 1NT opening" is 3 of the minor, natural and game forcing.

 

On this hand, I would probably just bid 3NT, it's very soft and it's unlikely 5D beats 3NT.

 

If we regularly open 1NT with a 5-card major I would look for a 5-3 heart fit, if I could.

[pclayton]

If I had 3♠ available to show a s/v, I'd drag it out.

 

The argument against this is is pinpoints the spade lead when its right. The counter is that they usually find the spade lead anyway, so you can diagnose the weakness and play an alternate strain. We may find 5♦ or 4♥.

 

Not playing this, I'd just blast 3N.

[jillybean]

Ok, I thought in SAYC 1nt 3m was invitational 6m+

[awm]

There are basically two questions here.

 

(1) How do you show a game forcing hand with a long minor over 1NT?

 

This depends on your methods over 1NT. If I remember correctly, SAYC says 1NT-3m is invitational. In this case the way to force is to bid stayman (2♣) followed by 3♦. Other methods may use 1NT-3m as forcing, or use four-suit transfers. In fact most methods over notrump consider stayman followed by 3m as forcing, but some would say it implies a four card major.

 

(2) Would you show a long minor on this hand?

 

I think the really key feature of this hand is the singleton spade. If opener has some spade holding like xxx or even Qxx then 3NT is often in trouble and 5♦ may be better. If there is a way to show spade shortness I would do it, even if this forces me to distort my minor suit shape (i.e. by bidding 3♥ to show 13(45)). If there is no way to show spade shortness I would blast 3NT.

[kenrexford]

Opener might have something like:

 

♠xxx ♥AKJxx ♦Ax ♣Axx

 

3NT is hopeless, but 6♦ or 6♥ is nearly laydown.

 

On the other hand, a stiff Jack is a big stiff and may help with a more practical 3NT.

 

This seems like a judgment call that I may well get wrong. My personal predisposition is to be pessimistic about 3NT when the fruits of the pessimism may well be that the minor SLAM is coming in.

 

Systemic options are, of course, critical. Maybe 2NT as a 4-way diamond transfer and then 3♠ for a stiff? Maybe Stayman, then 3♦ if partner bids 2♦ or 2♥, the latter of which allows a rebid by Opener of 3♥ after 3♦, which would be nice as well?

 

How sexy would this sequence be:

 

1NT-P-2♣-P-

2♥-P-3♦-P-

3♥(fifth heart)-P-3♠(heart fit, spade control)-P-

4♠(empathetic splinter -- max with nothing wasted in spades)-P-4NT(RKCB)-P-

5♦(four)-P-6♥-P-P-P!!!

[Finch]

Opener might have something like:

 

♠xxx ♥AKJxx ♦Ax ♣Axx

I certainly hope opener doesn't have a hand like that and opened 1NT, it's nothing resembling a 1NT opener.

[vuroth]

Ok, I thought in SAYC 1nt 3m was invitational 6m+

You were entirely correct. In SAYC, 1NT-3m is invitational, while 1NT-3M is GF.

 

...

 

If BIls should not be opening 1NT on ♠xxx ♥AKJxx ♦Ax ♣Axx, I'd love to hear about it.

[jillybean]

Ok, I thought in SAYC 1nt 3m was invitational 6m+

You were entirely correct. In SAYC, 1NT-3m is invitational, while 1NT-3M is GF.

 

...

 

If BIls should not be opening 1NT on ♠xxx ♥AKJxx ♦Ax ♣Axx, I'd love to hear about it.

I'm sure I was taught to open this 1♥

 

Back to the original question. I have no way of showing ♠ shortness, I dont want to force us into 5♦, I bid 3nt but considered 4nt :P

[kfay]

Opener might have something like:

 

♠xxx ♥AKJxx ♦Ax ♣Axx

I feel giddily optimistic after reading this.

 

I'll start out with 2♣-2[banana]; 3♦ here.

[neilkaz]

If I had 3♠ available to show a s/v, I'd drag it out.

 

The argument against this is is pinpoints the spade lead when its right. The counter is that they usually find the spade lead anyway, so you can diagnose the weakness and play an alternate strain. We may find 5♦ or 4♥.

 

Not playing this, I'd just blast 3N.

We agree totally.

[whereagles]

If I have a gadget to show the singleton spade, I'd use it. Else just blast 3NT :P

[vuroth]

Back to the original question. I have no way of showing ♠ shortness, I dont want to force us into 5♦, I bid 3nt but considered 4nt :P

I think in SAYC, your options are 3NT and 5♦.

[kfay]

Back to the original question. I have no way of showing ♠ shortness, I dont want to force us into 5♦, I bid 3nt but considered 4nt  :P

I think in SAYC, your options are 3NT and 5♦.

4NT is crazy. You're about a gajillion times more likely to be going down in 3NT than making 6NT.

 

Playing SAYC 2♣-banana-3♦ is forcing so I don't see how 3NT and 5♦ are your only options.

[vuroth]

Playing SAYC 2♣-banana-3♦ is forcing so I don't see how 3NT and 5♦ are your only options.

It's forcing, but with a pickup partner, I'd be afraid of them bidding bananas over my ♦. In other words, it might not be clear to my partner that ♦ wasn't some kind of cue bid or second suit in support of bananas.

[P_Marlowe]

Ok, I thought in SAYC 1nt 3m was invitational 6m+

You were entirely correct. In SAYC, 1NT-3m is invitational, while 1NT-3M is GF.

 

...

 

If BIls should not be opening 1NT on ♠xxx ♥AKJxx ♦Ax ♣Axx, I'd love to hear about it.

Hi,

 

If you bid 3NT with the original hand, and partner

opened 1 NT with your hand, ... you go down, but

that is life and due to the fact, that you played in

a pickup partnership, and your aim was to avoid

a bidding misunderstanding, which is a sensible

goal.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[kfay]

Playing SAYC 2♣-banana-3♦ is forcing so I don't see how 3NT and 5♦ are your only options.

It's forcing, but with a pickup partner, I'd be afraid of them bidding bananas over my ♦. In other words, it might not be clear to my partner that ♦ wasn't some kind of cue bid or second suit in support of bananas.

Certainly a valid consideration.

[jillybean]

crazy eh. :blink: How do you evaluate a long minor here? I have always found long minors to be an exceptionally good source of tricks in nt.

[Flameous]

I bid 2♠, minor suit stayman which promises usually weak or slam going hand. This is pretty borderline but I'll give it a shot.

Most likely I get 3♣ (better clubs), I bid 3♠ as shortness, slam going with either or both minors. Now if p has something good in spades I trust him to bid 3NT and we can play there.