What's the minimum for 2N over 1N

[mikegill]

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=sxhxxdajxxxckt87x]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1N ?[/hv]

 

This hand was from a GNT A knockout, opponents are about average for the field if that matters to you.

[Gerben42]

2NT for me.

[jtfanclub]

I guess I'm the only one who would do it red....

[whereagles]

I take it OPPS opened 1NT.

 

Anyway, I pass. Can't fight majors with minors.

[mike777]

If I play 2c=clubs and another I bid at any vul.

 

At this vul I could have a far worse hand for 2clubs now!

[mikegill]

Yes, I think you would get nearly unanimous agreement for bidding 2♣ if it were clubs and another suit. Unfortunately, that was not an option at the table so you're stuck with 2n or pass.

[kenrexford]

2NT for me.

 

As an aside, a sharing moment. 1NT-2NT-? I have now convinced one partner to treat this as akin to 2NT-P-? 3♣ Puppet; transfers; 3♠ for 5♠/4♥; Texaqs on. Something to consider. You can also do the same thing after 1NT-3♣-?, with the X being "Stolen Puppet."

[kenrexford]

I guess I'm the only one who would do it red....

I'll join you...which may confirm the paranthetical for you.

[cherdano]

Wow, 2N with 2 baad suits??

[mikeh]

I pass

 

2N shows, for me, a desire to save over 4 Major. White v white, this hand doesn't (quite) measure up. And, on the flip side, it should be able to avoid disaster opposite a mediocre hand.. and this doesn't measure up to that standard either.

 

And, in the meantime, if the opps play the hand (and they rate to), my 2N is going to make my hand an open book to a reasonably competent declarer.

 

While Flt A of the GNT may is not the Championship Flight, I would expect most of the declarers at that level to be able to draw the appropriate inferences should I bid.

 

And most of the opps at this level should be able to bid reasonably well over my 2N. In Flight C, for example, 2N might throw them for a loop... how do they stayman, are transfer on, what does double mean, etc.

[jdonn]

I would pass at any vul over 1NT. The suits look a hair too decrepid for me to take the huge risk of helping declarer play the hand well. I pretty much agree with Mike.

[Apollo81]

Wow, 2N with 2 baad suits??

 

Did you mean:

                    _,._

                 __.'   _)

                <_,)'.-"a\

                  /' (        \          "Those suits are baa-aa-aa-d"

      _.-----..,-'   (`"--^

     //               |

    (|   `;      ,   |

      \   ;.----/  ,/

       ) // /   | |\ \

       \ \\`\  | |/ /

        \ \\  \ | |\ /

         `" `"  `"`

[Cascade]

Pass not really close for me. I need more distribution or better suits to be bidding here.

 

Bidding with crap is much more likely to help the opponents than my side. Especially at IMPs.

[brianshark]

I pass at all vulnerabilities. To be honest, I don't really believe some of the people who claim they'd bid 2N with this hand, especially vul. Either that or you really need to find opponents who know how to punish you for extravagant bidding like that.

[jtfanclub]

I pass at all vulnerabilities. To be honest, I don't really believe some of the people who claim they'd bid 2N with this hand, especially vul. Either that or you really need to find opponents who know how to punish you for extravagant bidding like that.

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? I'm judging that...

 

1) My opponents will tend to wronside the contract if I put a 2NT in there, and that my partner will find the killing lead if it's available. If partner has Qx of diamonds, for example, it's a two trick swing if I put in a 2NT call.

 

2) I don't mind if my partner wants to save with this hand.

 

Auction goes:

 

(1NT) 2NT (3♠) P

(4♠) -P- -P-

 

Would you seriously consider bidding 5♦ with the following?

 

xxx

xxx

QTxx

QJx

 

I wouldn't, and yet it's probably only down 2, a good save at equal vulnerability. Anything partner would actually save with is likely to be a very good save.

 

3) Am I worried that I might get punished at 3 of a minor? No, not with a 5-5. Odds are good that we'll have a fit, so we should be fine. If we have a fit and they don't have game, partner will have enough count that they can't afford to double.

 

Maybe with opps that have some kind of puppet-reverse-Stayman technique over 2NT, where they can rightside both 4-4 and 5-3 major suit fits, it isn't worth putting in the bid. But I really don't expect to get hurt on this one. Worst case, they get an extra trick because I've given them extra information.

[jdonn]

Worst case, they get an extra trick because I've given them extra information.

You gloss over this like it's not important. It's....big font coming....HUUUGE. You also seriously underestimate the penalty you could go for on the three level. Just how many tricks do you expect to take if partner is 2-2 in the minors?

[Apollo81]

I have another poll: let's say instead RHO had opened a major. Your call.

[neilkaz]

2N for me here at these colors, but if I'm Red I pass unless the suits are better.

 

Playing DONT I'd bid 2C if Red.

[Codo]

Mike put in that the hand is from a GNT A with above average opponents.

 

I have no idea how good his opponents in a GNT are.

 

But if I play in the open tourneys here, I would bid 2 NT against anybody I do not know and against some players I do know.

 

There are millions of players out there who have no idea how to handle interferences over their NT. So I will give it a chance.

 

Okay, now, if I face someone from this forum, I better pass, because they all have no problems to show one or two suiters in the majors at part score, game or slam level or to find the right time to double our 3 minor contract.

 

Well maybe I would still bid it against some posters. :)

 

I liked to play DONT, but I think if you bid 2 Clubs here, you DONT disturb opponents no trump, so I would still bid 2 NT or pass.

[Finch]

I would pass over 1NT at any vulnerability (I voted days ago before all these maniac bidders started posting).

 

I would pass over a 1M opening at any vulnerability as well.

[Finch]

2) I don't mind if my partner wants to save with this hand.

 

Auction goes:

 

(1NT) 2NT (3♠) P

(4♠) -P- -P-

 

Would you seriously consider bidding 5♦ with the following?

 

xxx

xxx

QTxx

QJx

 

I wouldn't, and yet it's probably only down 2, a good save at equal vulnerability. Anything partner would actually save with is likely to be a very good save.

The way I play a 2NT overcall, partner has already bid over the 3S bid on this hand.

 

And anyway the opponents are cold for slam (and responder seems to have a lot of major suit cards and a lot of HCP so I don't entirely understand the suggested auction).

 

But of course if partner has a big fit for a minor then you probably want to be bidding (as long as you don't push them into a making contract they would otherwise not have bid or gone off in).

 

It's the fact that they can take their 800 penalty against their 400 game fairly easily that puts us off bidding. Unless the opponents don't know what they are doing, this is a hugely easy auction to extract a penalty on. Responder can double 2NT to show a good hand, and now they are in a forcing pass auction. Compare that with an opening pre-empt where 2nd seat has no way to show a penalty double.

[jtfanclub]

Worst case, they get an extra trick because I've given them extra information.

You gloss over this like it's not important. It's....big font coming....HUUUGE.

I think that wrongsiding the contract is bigger. If I'm playing against people where a 2NT won't slow them down or wrongside the contract, then I'm not going to bid 2NT.

 

I think you underestimate how badly a 2NT call can throw intermediate opponents off their game, because, well, you don't play intermediate opponents much. :( If you're playing with a schmoe client, and you open 1NT, LHO bids 2NT and your partner goes into the tank, are you thinking "oh good" or "oh *****".

 

You also seriously underestimate the penalty you could go for on the three level. Just how many tricks do you expect to take if partner is 2-2 in the minors?

 

It does happen. But the theory is that when you have a 5-5 or longer, your odds of having a fit are very high. It's the same odds that are being used to bid Michaels over 1♠. Yeah, sure, sometimes you have trouble, but not very often. As long as we have a fit, 2NT won't go for much.

[jtfanclub]

The way I play a 2NT overcall, partner has already bid over the 3S bid on this hand.

 

And anyway the opponents are cold for slam (and responder seems to have a lot of major suit cards and a lot of HCP so I don't entirely understand the suggested auction).

Cold for slam?

 

[hv=n=sxhxxdajxxxckt87x&w=skqxxhktxxdkxcaxx&e=sajtxxhaqjxdxxc9x&s=sxxxhxxxdqtxxcqjx]399|300|[/hv]

 

They'll be lucky to make 5.

 

The way it's played around here, 3♠ is game forcing, and 4♠ shows decent spades but a minimum. That may be the confusion.

[Apollo81]

I would pass over 1NT at any vulnerability (I voted days ago before all these maniac bidders started posting).

 

I would pass over a 1M opening at any vulnerability as well.

You'd even pass at favorable if they opened your singleton? I would at least try 2N in that situation if not in any other.

[mikeh]

I think you underestimate how badly a 2NT call can throw intermediate opponents off their game, because, well, you don't play intermediate opponents much. :P  If you're playing with a schmoe client, and you open 1NT, LHO bids 2NT and your partner goes into the tank, are you thinking "oh good" or "oh *****". 

 

The conditions of contest were Flt A GNT, presumably, given the time of year, the District Finals. Now, Flight A is probably not the top bracket... at least in our District Flt A is the second tier, and, while I don't play that Flight, I do know some players who do. They are not the best players in the event... but they are generally better than most of the BBO 'experts' and will have several thousand masterpoints.. the upper limit is 5,000. So I think it is wrong to answer the poll based on what you'd do against intermediate opps. And, at this level, the opps are certainly good enough to start with double a lot of the time, over 2N. And, if that happens, you have (almost certainly) generated a losing position.

 

As for disrupting the auction of weak opps, my view is that, if we are significantly better players, why randomize the results? The most probable scenario for us losing is that we give them some free shots. The OP said this was the KO stage, so we aren't worried about piling up the VPs.. we just want to win.

 

Frankly, 2N is the kind of bid I might consider if we were either significantly outgunned by the opps or losing big with one set to go. It may win a bunch of imps, but will more often lose a bunch. So I haul it out when the cost of losing is largely irrelevant.