how to bid this grand slam?

[cnszsun]

[hv=d=n&v=b&n=sxxhakxdkxcakqtxx&s=sakxxhqjxxdaxxcjx]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

Playing 2/1. This is a laydown 7NT, but how to reach it?

After 1C-1H, what's the best rebid by opener? if you rebid 2NT, responder can use some checkback stayman to ask opener's majors, but he normally will not find your good 6 clubs. 3C, is that underbid? Do you have any special treatment for opener's hand type?

[Cascade]

As a start ...

 

I rebid 3NT to show a hand too good for 3♣. This is either a 16-18 hcp hand with a seventh club or good 18s up with six clubs.

 

I have also been experimenting with a 3♦ rebid to show a standard 3♣ rebid but with three-card support for responder's suit.

[Free]

I bid 3♣ to show this exact hand: 6+♣s with a 3 card ♥ support and maximum hand. This will help a lot!

 

EDIT: typo fixed :)

[joker_gib]

:) And what do you rebid with 16-18 and 4♥ support ?

[syl]

What about a slightly overbid 2♣♣? This rebid problem was known at the beginning, unlesss pd responds 1♠,when I can describe my hand with 3NT, I'm in trouble.

[inquiry]

I bid 3♥ to show this exact hand: 6+♣s with a 3 card ♥ support and maximum hand. This will help a lot!

A typo? I think you mean you rebid 3♣'s to show this hand, not 3♥s.

[inquiry]

The auction is fairly easy using a jump to 3♣ as 6+♣, 3 card support, and a good hand.

 

1♣   1♥

3♣   3♦

3♥   3♠

4♣   4♠

4N   5♠

5N   7N

Pass

 

3♣ = six+♣, 3♥ very good hand

3♦ = nmf or new suit forcing

3♥ = waiting what else can I do, can't bid NT, no ♠ control, can bid ♠'s

3♠ = cue-bid slam try, makes 3♦ a cue-bid now too

4N = key card blackwood,

5♠ = two key cards plus the heart queen

5NT = I am thinking grand slam, looking for an extra trick.

?

 

Your next bid over 5NT depends upon your style. You may cue-bid your king with one and bid grand with two. You may show your number of kings in steps. Etc. Here, I like to show my extra stuff. On this hand, I know my ♥J is an extra trick, as is my ♠K. And my ♣J is probably very useful as partner was interested in ♣K or Q, he would have bid 3NT over 3♠ to give me a chance to cue-bid either of those fitting cards. So regardless of how I normally respond, I think I would bid 7NT here.

 

If you don't play this jump to 3♣'s shows this hand, you will have to invent a bid. Since 3♣ is wrong then if it denies support. 2NT is wrong for two reasons, this hand has a great source of tricks and you sort of have a ♠ problem. 3NT is about right on stregnth, but wrong on ♠'s. So that leaves two possible bids, 2♦ the worse looking reverse in the history of bidding, or 4♣. Four ♣ here in theory should show a solid ♣ suit and four card support. So it it better to pretend that you have one more ♥ than you do and bid 4♣ or two more ♦s and bid 2♦. Since AKx looks like better support to me than many 4 card suits, I believe I would pretend to have 4♥'s and rebid 4♣.

 

Now the bidding is very easy...

 

1♣   1♥

4♣!  4NT

5♥   7N

 

4♣ = solid suit plus four (!) card support

4NT = RKCB

5♥ = 2 key cards, no ♥Q

7NT = 6♣ (Jack clearly working), 4♥, 2♠, 1♦.

[Free]

I bid 3♥ to show this exact hand: 6+♣s with a 3 card ♥ support and maximum hand.  This will help a lot!

A typo? I think you mean you rebid 3♣'s to show this hand, not 3♥s.

Yes, a typo... it's indeed 3♣ i mean...

[Trpltrbl]

I just open the North hand 2 NT, I think the hand is too good for 3♣ rebid. But after auction you gave I will rebid 2♦, which will get you to GS.

 

Mike :P

[Trpltrbl]

1♣ - 1♥

2♦ - 2♠

3♣ - 4♣

4♥ - 4♠

5♦ - 5♥

7♣ - 7NT

 

2♠= general forcing bid

4♣= RKC for ♣

4♥= 0-3 Keycards

4♠= Asking for Q of ♣ and specific Kings

5♦= Q of ♣ and K of ♦

5♥= asking to bid GS with K of ♥ or other tricks we don't know about

7♣= I have it

7 NT= no ruffing by opps :P

 

Mike :D

[cnszsun]

The auction is fairly easy using a jump to 3♣ as 6+♣, 3 card support, and a good hand.

 

1♣   1♥

3♣   3♦

3♥   3♠

4♣   4♠

4N   5♠

5N    7N

Pass

 

3♣ = six+♣, 3♥ very good hand

3♦ = nmf or new suit forcing

3♥ = waiting what else can I do, can't bid NT, no ♠ control, can bid ♠'s

3♠ = cue-bid slam try, makes 3♦ a cue-bid now too

4N = key card blackwood,

5♠ = two key cards plus the heart queen

5NT = I am thinking grand slam, looking for an extra trick.

?

 

Your next bid over 5NT depends upon your style. You may cue-bid your king with one and bid grand with two. You may show your number of kings in steps. Etc. Here, I like to show my extra stuff. On this hand, I know my ♥J is an extra trick, as is my ♠K. And my ♣J is probably very useful as partner was interested in ♣K or Q, he would have bid 3NT over 3♠ to give me a chance to cue-bid either of those fitting cards. So regardless of how I normally respond,  I think I would bid 7NT here.

 

Ben, i like your idea about jump rebid in ♣ here.

3♣:6+♣, 3 card support, and a good hand

4♣:a solid ♣ suit , 4 card support

I believe both these bids will be GF, but if you get a hand with 16-18pts, 6+♣, without support or 3 card support, you want to make a invitational bid (you will bid 3♣ in standard bidding system with such hand) , how do you handled it?

[the hog]

We would bid as follows

1C 1H

2D 2S.............2D = GF with C or natural reverse, 2S = relay, shows slam interest

4C 4D.............4D = demands cues

4H 4N..............4N = RKCB

5D 5H.............4D = 3, 5H = Q of C ask

6D 7N.............6D = "yes" and 2 extra Kings

[inquiry]

Ben, i like your idea about jump rebid in ♣ here.

3♣:6+♣, 3 card support, and a good hand

4♣:a solid ♣ suit , 4 card support

I believe both these bids will be GF, but if you get a hand with 16-18pts, 6+♣, without support or 3 card support, you want to make a invitational bid (you will bid 3♣ in standard bidding system with such hand) , how do you handled it?

First, the jump to 3!C is not GF, it is not even forcing. :-)

 

Second, what do I do with a good hand and clubs without 3 card fit for partner? I have two options. I open multi-2!D with, among other things, an ACOL 2 bid in a minor. So the monster hand without a fit is not here. We play 2 of "other minor" like Ron does, one round force, and may not have the other minor.

 

Often our 2 of the other minor is balanced 17 to 19, as we save our 1m-1M-2N for something other than a hand too good for 1NT opening. The opener promises a rebid unless responder rebids his suit or raises the first minor. So

 

1C-1H

2D-2H

3C

 

for instance would be the hand with lots of clubs without 3 card support.

 

Ben

[cnszsun]

Ben, i like your idea about jump rebid in ♣ here.

3♣:6+♣, 3 card support, and a good hand

4♣:a solid ♣ suit , 4 card support

I believe both these bids will be GF, but if you get a hand with 16-18pts, 6+♣, without support or 3 card support, you want to make a invitational bid (you will bid 3♣ in standard bidding system with such hand) , how do you handled it?

First, the jump to 3!C is not GF, it is not even forcing. :-)

 

Second, what do I do with a good hand and clubs without 3 card fit for partner? I have two options. I open multi-2!D with, among other things, an ACOL 2 bid in a minor. So the monster hand without a fit is not here. We play 2 of "other minor" like Ron does, one round force, and may not have the other minor.

 

Often our 2 of the other minor is balanced 17 to 19, as we save our 1m-1M-2N for something other than a hand too good for 1NT opening. The opener promises a rebid unless responder rebids his suit or raises the first minor. So

 

1C-1H

2D-2H

3C

 

for instance would be the hand with lots of clubs without 3 card support.

 

Ben

I want to construct a biddding structure to handle a good hand with a long minor suit.

 

1)GF hands open 2♣;

2)almost GF hands, like 9-10 winning tricks, open multi-2♦ like Ben does;

3)1m-1M-3m: 3 card support, and a good hand with long minor;

4)1m-1M-4m: 4 card support, and a good hand with long minor;

5)1m-1M-3NT a good hand with solid minor suit, without fit, and unbid suit stopped;

6)1♣-1M-2♦: forcing, real reverse in ♦ or long ♣ suit without fit, just rebid your ♣ next round to show this kind of hand; But if the minor is ♦, 1♦-1M-?, i have no minor reverse to be used. In Ben's post, it seems you still use 2♣ here as forcing and multi-meaning. Is that right? And anybody can help me to improve my structure?

[inquiry]

I want to construct a biddding structure to handle a good hand with a long minor suit.

 

1)GF hands open 2♣;

2)almost GF hands, like 9-10 winning tricks, open multi-2♦ like Ben does;

3)1m-1M-3m: 3 card support, and a good hand with long minor;

4)1m-1M-4m: 4 card support, and a good hand with long minor;

5)1m-1M-3NT a good hand with solid minor suit, without fit, and unbid suit stopped;

6)1♣-1M-2♦: forcing, real reverse in ♦ or long ♣ suit without fit, just rebid your ♣ next round to show this kind of hand; But if the minor is ♦, 1♦-1M-?, i have no minor reverse to be used. In Ben's post, it seems you still use 2♣ here as forcing and multi-meaning. Is that right? And anybody can help me to improve my structure?

Michael,

 

The method you have drawn up is exactly what I am doing now with Misho. I think there would not be too much controversy until you get to your item number 6,

 

In fact, we do play

1♦    1M

2♣

 

As 100% forcing, and does not promise a ♣ suit. For matchpoints this might be a bad option, because it means you can't play 2♣s when both partners are weakish with a club fit. In fact with a weak hand and ♦&♣'s we don't even rebid 2♣'s. We will instead, (consider this auction.. 1♦-1♠-?)...

1) raise partner with three card support (3-2-4-4 or 3-1-5-4)

2) rebid 1NT (with 1-3-5-4, and even 1-2-5-5)

3) rebid our first minor is if is "strong" enough five card suit or a six card suit (1-2-5-5; 2-1-5-5).

 

This has an effect of making our low level auction where the hand belongs in 2 of the other minor problematic. But it improves out slam and game auctions, and at imps, I would rather bid my hands that can be +920 or more better than my hands that can be +90. I think it was Kantar commenting on the difficulty in modern bridge to bid clubs naturally (stayman, drury, nmf, 1♣ strong and forcing, 3♣ bergen, etc), who said something like "we can't bid clubs naturally anymore, and soon we they will take away natural ♦'s bids too". Lol, misho and I are rapidly approaching this stage. :-)

 

This new minor has helped us in another way, I think. As i said earlier, we save 1m-1M-2NT for something other than a balanced hand. That something other is really good hand with raise of partner's major. So, to show the balanced hands others jump to 2NT on, we use the new minor by the opener as forcing, and then rebid 2NT. By taking using an opener's jacoby 2NT (for lack of a better term), we can narrowly define 1m-1M-2M and 1m-1M-3M (jump to 2NT is stronger than the 3M raise). This puts us at a lower level for slam tries (2NT being lower than 3M), and gives us room to use our limit+ raise responses to separate responders mear game interest hands opposite a strong raise from his own slam interest hands.

 

As a final caveat, after 1♣-1♦, opener doesn't have the other minor to force on. We still use the jump to 2NT to show a monster raise of responders suit. But now we rebid 1NT not with the balanced 11-13 (or 11-14 if you play 15-17 NT), but rather 1NT would be the big hand (17-19). With the 11-13, we rebid 1 of a major. This might be a three card suit, and this bid is not forcing.

 

This last concept is fairly new, as we always played 1m-1x-1M as 100% forcing before. I know one hand will not be convincing, but here is one played in a recent team match (freee was no my team at the other table, and had an interesting auction over there too).

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=sa82hkq95dj98cjt2&w=st7654ht832dq6ca7&e=sqj9hj7da74ckq954&s=sk3ha64dkt532c863]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]West    Misho  East    Inquiry

Pass    1♣      Pass    1♦      

Pass    1♥      Pass    Pass    

Pass    

 

Note 1♥ and 1NT are the only contract NS can make, but 1♥ is easier to make than 1NT, and in fact, you can make 2♥ if you guess everything correctly (1♠ ruff, 2♠, 1♦, and 4♥), while in NT, you have to guess ♦ right to make. The correct bid with my hand is probably 1NT (to play) unless partner has hidden extra values, but what the heck, 1♥ worked out well for us.

 

At Free's table, he was west and his partner opened 1NT (14-16) (despite having only 13...) and when Free bid 2♣ (stayman) and his partner took the decision to pass (Free was a passed hand after all). EW can make 2♠ without problems.

 

Ben

[lifemonster]

It is an interesting question to ask what if responder doesn't have either ♠K or ♥J?

 

I think even without agreement it's clear cut to start everything from 2♦ "reverse". Rest will be easy because responder simply has too much.

 

BTW, I cannot read all the ♣♦♥♠ notations after several times of refreshment. What should I do?

[the hog]

I want to construct a biddding structure to handle a good hand with a long minor suit.

 

1)GF hands open 2♣;

2)almost GF hands, like 9-10 winning tricks, open multi-2♦ like Ben does;

3)1m-1M-3m: 3 card support, and a good hand with long minor;

4)1m-1M-4m: 4 card support, and a good hand with long minor;

5)1m-1M-3NT a good hand with solid minor suit, without fit, and unbid suit stopped;

6)1♣-1M-2♦: forcing, real reverse in ♦ or long ♣ suit without fit, just rebid your ♣ next round to show this kind of hand; But if the minor is ♦, 1♦-1M-?, i have no minor reverse to be used. In Ben's post, it seems you still use 2♣ here as forcing and multi-meaning. Is that right? And anybody can help me to improve my structure?

Michael,

 

The method you have drawn up is exactly what I am doing now with Misho. I think there would not be too much controversy until you get to your item number 6,

We play point number 6, but there is a lot more system to it than just "bidding C to show this type of hand"

 

2• = GF, natural reverse or just long D (not fit-reverse). The 2D re bid can be made on a GF hand with excellent ♣. Responder can relay with 2 of the other Major, or make a descriptive bid.

 

1♣ 1♥

2D

Now

2M/3• = 5+ cards

 

2 other M = relay

Now 2N = D-• reverse, NT-oriented (3m sets suit)

3C=C-• reverse, suit-oriented (3• asks to bid shortness)

3 suit = 6+C with shortness

3N = 6+C, no shortness, 17-19

4C = 6+C, no shortness, 20-22, demands cues

[cnszsun]

We play point number 6, but there is a lot more system to it than just "bidding C to show this type of hand"

 

2• = GF, natural reverse or just long D (not fit-reverse). The 2D re bid can be made on a GF hand with excellent ♣. Responder can relay with 2 of the other Major, or make a descriptive bid.

 

1♣  1♥

2D

  Now

  2M/3• = 5+ cards

 

  2 other M = relay

Now 2N = D-• reverse, NT-oriented (3m sets suit)

                3C=C-• reverse, suit-oriented (3• asks to bid shortness)

                                3 suit = 6+C with shortness

  3N = 6+C, no shortness, 17-19

  4C = 6+C, no shortness, 20-22, demands cues

I think your system works perfect for ♣, but how do you deal with ♦ suit, do you have any similar treatment for ♦?

[the hog]

"I think your system works perfect for ♣, but how do you deal with ♦ suit, do you have any similar treatment for ♦? "

 

No. Over 1D we play natural GF reverses. Also 1D 1? 2N = Gf; over this 3C is an artificial checkback, asking for 3 card support, and shortages.

[mishovnbg]

 

----------------------------------------------

Hi Ben!

 

As 100% forcing, and does not promise a ♣ suit. For matchpoints this might be a bad option, because it means you can't play 2♣s when both partners are weakish with a club fit.

 

 

------

Even at MP same bidding is normally better. I will quote Rumen's words about good players: "If you stop at good score (in our case 2♣), opps will balance and find their fit. So you no need "perfect" sign offs as well as weak major raises, better to play without giving them info about type of your hand if weak." For example opps can pass our 5-2 ♦ score, havindg 4-4 in ♣, due to 4♦ and even we go down they probably have major score.

 

My new version of NTC 2.70 doesn't include anymore 2 way major raises, weak hands even with fit bid 1NT. I was witness how Kalin bid in vul! with xxx,KQxx,xxx,xxx over 1♥ opening 1NT!!! and they won score against expert opponents. There is a difference between "I like" and "I want to win" sometimes...

 

 

------

By the way, do you like we to agree Ron's scheme or similar one after our NMF by opener?

 

 

------------------------------------------

Misho

[Rado]

Hi all,

Why too many posters tend to stretch 1♣-1.. 3♣ range so much?

Am I wrong that jump rebid after 1/1 opening shows good 15 upto 17 points and good 6 carder and does not deny or confirm 3 cards in partner's suit?

 

suppose ♠Axx ♥x ♦Jxx ♣AKQJxx here again 1♣-1♥-3♣ seems normal and standart.

 

In my view rebid with good 6 carders in 18-20 p range have not been clearly explained in SAYC and 2/1 and the only escape is "artifitial" reverse (2♦ at the original hand). For example in French standart such hands are opened 2♣, together with 23-24 bal range, while FG and 25+ bal are opened 2♦.

 

Kind regards

Rado

[Yzerman]

Although I love my super science system(s), I personally like to bid this hand type very unscientifically. I like to open 1C and rebid 3N to show ACOL 2 hand in minor with lots of trick taking potential and a few outside controls. My experience with this bid has been very favorable, occasionally you may wrongside a marginal 3NT but this bid has advantage of being very "economical" (fewest # of bids to descripe hand type).

 

Partner can follow up on the 3N rebid with whatever the partnership RKC methods are, personally i like redwood or kickback on this auction. I play 4C with most partners as RKC on clubs after 3N rebid, and most of my partnerships (at least established partnerships) I have advanced RKC methods to ask for specific 2nd and 3rd round controls, so that can solve this specific hand problem rather easily.

 

I personally would not open this hand 2NT for this "hand type", lots of tricks, can easily miss a laydown slam or grand when partner have a "magic" hand.

 

I like the 3C bid suggested by some to show the club hand with heart fragment, however that would overlap with other hand types that you might bid 3C with. My favorite suggestion mentioned in this thread are those that mention double jump into diamonds to show picture fragment with own club suit. This bid overlaps with my favorite treatment (double jump to show 5 1/2 loser picture bid in C/H, 9+ cards) but these 2 hands types might be able to be combined in somehow, or maybe i reconsider and remove old way and implement this.

[bglover]

I would open this hand 2 clubs to start. It meets the 81/2 trick requirement and also the 4 defensive trick requirement. From there its straightforward and relatively simple to reach 7 after a 3club rebid. Responder will bid 4n (or 4c if minorwood) and locate all the cards need to reach 7.

[inquiry]

The hand Rado presents has generated several comments.. should you open 2NT? Should you open 2♣? Mike treats it as acol 2 in minor bid and leaps to 3NT (at least that has practical values, partner will know good minor suit as source of tricks).

 

I actually have acol -2-of minor as part of my multi-2♦ bid. This hand does not quality. Amazingly for me, this monster is not strong enough. So from a practical standpoint, this is a 1♣ opening bid for me. And as Rado says, this hand is "worth" a 3♣ jump. This is true, but we have agreed that this hand would be a 3♣ jump if partnre had bid 1♠, over 1♥ we can't do this jump. So here, the options are an off-shape 1♠ force (1RF) or a impossible reverse (2♦) followed by 3♣ to show the one suited great hand. Of course, Mike's solution is a possibility on this hand, and in fact, I would probably follow his lead at the table and bid 3NT. My partenr will know solid clubs and somewhat limited by my inability to use the acol 2 of a minor opening bid of 2♦'s, so the 3NT rebid has a lot to say for it in the system I play.

[badderzboy]

Playing Benji Acol,

 

2♣ - 3NT

4NT - 5♥

5NT - 6♦

7NT

 

 

(i) I'd open 2♣ showing ACOL 2 in an undisclosed suit

(ii) partner would bid 3NT showing strong balanced reply 12+

(iii) I'd bid 4NT Blackwood (no suit agreed)

(iv) 5♥ showing 2 A now I have only one loser (and poss Q♣)

(v) 5NT and after 6♦ showing 1 King

(vi) 7NT thank u very much :-)

 

Steve