More cell phone drama

[mycroft]

Every time (at a tournament, at least) that I have been able to source a cell phone ringing, a penalty has been applied. The problem is that when a phone rings when you're across the room, you can't always tell which purse it came from, and strangely enough, the other players aren't too willing to point it out.

 

So at least half the cell phones that go off go unpunished. Not all that much I can do about it.

 

Cheating via whatever secret means and disruption of concentration due to ringing are two disjoint issues, and are being solved by two different regulations. Whether or not this one is appropriate is arguable, but I have pointed out several times how easy it would be to cheat with one person in the Vugraph theatre (or on BBO, for that matter), with a cell phone on vibrate and never answered.

 

I do think that a system will be put into place. I expect it will be refined over the first few days as the initial attempts to solve the problem fail dismally under load. I think it will eventually work.

 

Of course, I also think "the leash" is the most obnoxious, soul-destroying technology to come around since Prohibition organized crime. And I'm an early adopter of electronica. They can be used responsibly, but never are.

[blackshoe]

Guns don't come in handy at the bridge site.

I think Mrs. Bennett might have disagreed with you. :)

[jdonn]

Every time (at a tournament, at least) that I have been able to source a cell phone ringing, a penalty has been applied.  The problem is that when a phone rings when you're across the room, you can't always tell which purse it came from, and strangely enough, the other players aren't too willing to point it out.

You sure have different experiences than I do. I consistently see directors just give a warning to the person. In fact I can't think of a single time, not one, that I have seen the penalty applied, but I can literally think of dozens of times that I heard a cell phone ring.

 

I have pointed out several times how easy it would be to cheat with one person in the Vugraph theatre (or on BBO, for that matter), with a cell phone on vibrate and never answered.

I agree, vugraph matches should be subject to different rules. Obviously things are much more sensitive when outside observers can see the hands in real time. Incidentally, it's very easy in a quiet environment to hear a cell phone vibrate in someone's pocket, although I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying.

[Elianna]

I'm a boringly law-abiding sort of person so would likely follow the rule even if it is an inconvenience. If I have a hotel or a car to leave it in I would do that. But even I can be pushed too far.

These are exactly my sentiments. I have never purposely broken any rules in my life, but this rule makes me feel so mad. I also hate being accused of wanting to use it while playing, which a few people seem to be saying is what those of us who are upset want.

 

BTW, anyone remember that awful bridge is cool commercial, and what was very prevalent in each segment? :)

[xcurt]

I'm a little late to this thread, but I really hope people aren't advocating just ignoring the rules because they don't suit them. The entire playability of bridge as a sport depends on trusting that everyone is competing honestly.

 

Also, as much as I take issue with both the financial and corporate management of the ACBL (and let's not kid ourselves, by any reasonable measure of corporate governance the ACBL gets an F), I think that this ban must have roots in some top players knowing that phones are being used for illicit purposes.

[matmat]

I think that this ban must have roots in some top players knowing that phones are being used for illicit purposes.

*broken record*

 

punish the people doing this, not everybody...

[mike777]

I think it says the World if you think not having your cellphone on your body for 3hours at a bridge tourney is punishment....:)

 

If I read the ban right you are allowed to bring your cell phone on a bridge trip.

 

Again I repeat if 3000 bridge players cannot go 3 hours without a cellphone/device...this ban will not last one day.

 

And yes I think many people find it funny that so many cannot exist for 3 hours without a cellphone on their body or they claim "punishment"

[matmat]

I think it says the World if you think not having your cellphone on your body for 3hours at a bridge tourney is punishment....:)

mike... this is getting old.

I couldn't care less if i have the phone with me or not during the 3hours of bridge.

I *WANT* the phone with me at intermissions between sessions when trying to coordinate lunch/dinner with people, after sessions when i want to go somewhere else... and i don't want to waste 40 minutes of my lunch or dinner break simply retrieving and putting back my f@#$@#$ phone.

[jdonn]

I think it says the World if you think not having your cellphone on your body for 3hours at a bridge tourney is punishment....:)

You are way too obsessed with this. It's simply a fact, very very many people feel anywhere from mildly inconvenienced to completely uncomfortable without their cell phone, and 10 times more when they are on a trip away from home, trying to meet up with friends they don't see often, etc. You simply have to face that, and I don't really find your sarcastic implications about how sad it is for the world that people feel so attached to their cell phones very productive...

 

I didn't even see till after I posted this that matmat posted the exact same thing. It really is getting old.

[mike777]

I think it says the World if you think not having your cellphone on your body for 3hours at a bridge tourney is punishment....:)

mike... this is getting old.

I couldn't care less if i have the phone with me or not during the 3hours of bridge.

I *WANT* the phone with me at intermissions between sessions when trying to coordinate lunch/dinner with people, after sessions when i want to go somewhere else... and i don't want to waste 40 minutes of my lunch or dinner break simply retrieving and putting back my f@#$@#$ phone.

If not then leave you phone at home...ohhh ok that is punishment..

[mike777]

I think it says the World if you think not having your cellphone on your body for 3hours at a bridge tourney is punishment....:)

You are way too obsessed with this. It's simply a fact, very very many people feel anywhere from mildly inconvenienced to completely uncomfortable without their cell phone, and 10 times more when they are on a trip away from home, trying to meet up with friends they don't see often, etc. You simply have to face that, and I don't really find your sarcastic implications about how sad it is for the world that people feel so attached to their cell phones very productive...

lol do you read the rest of my posts..if players agree with you this ban will last one day......

 

You guys pay to go to tourneys....if you want cell phones on your bodies and no 40 minute waits, no problem, I said that a million times. :)

[matmat]

lol do you read the rest of my posts..if players agree with you this ban will last one day......

the ban will last one day, the rule will be on the books, and as adam pointed out, it will be selectively applied to people who the director or ACBL officials at the site don't like and they will turn a blind eye to their favorites. is this what this organization wants?

 

ridiculous.

[jdonn]

I said that a million times. :)

That's the problem. Once is plenty thank you.

[mike777]

"director or ACBL officials at the site don't like and they will turn a blind eye to their favorites. is this what this organization wants?"

 

 

 

I hope you are very wrong....but you do seem to feel this will be the standard.

[matmat]

"director or ACBL officials at the site don't like and they will turn a blind eye to their favorites. is this what this organization wants?"

 

 

 

I hope you are very wrong....but you do seem to feel this will be the standard.

i don't see why if the acbl officials think that if the general membership cheats, the general memberships can't suspect the officials are corrupt/biased -- are they not selected from the general pool, after all?

[finally17]

I'm a little late to this thread, but I really hope people aren't advocating just ignoring the rules because they don't suit them.  The entire playability of bridge as a sport depends on trusting that everyone is competing honestly.

I advocate ignoring the rule because I don't think the ACBL has the right to try and enforce a rule on their customers (they tend to forget that major part) that:

 

a) is a major inconvenience for a large % of the population (most people) that carries a cell phone

 

b ) will have essentially no effect on any play issues

 

c) as has been hashed and rehashed, will do nothing to stop people who want to cheat

 

d) makes more difficult some few (in number) but rather serious safety concerns

 

e) I'm sure there's a e) and an f) and probably an g) but it's late and the first 4 are more than enough

 

 

This is less about the game, which will be completely playable in either case, and more about certain basic principles which I believe this ban violates. Call it a simple thing, or a childish thing that we can't have our toys, but the principles are there nonetheless.

[jkdood]

I have the greatest admiration and respect for my dear JoshD and dear MatMat and other well-spoken friends here! But I am thinking the ACBL may have just implemented this policy, for legal reasons, to selectively enforce ONLY against the suspected abusers that may have already been seen in the bathrooms, so to speak, looking guilty.

 

The rules, which apply to all members, must apply to all members if the ACBL can detain someone (suspected, monitored, etc) for a search of sorts and find on them a cellphone and administer harsh punishment (such as expulsion.)

 

So I hope I am right that my sense is that it is just a tool the ACBL can use to attack a known problem that defies other measures, such as hearings and lawsuits.

 

Now legally speaking, the ACBL can't just ignore and not enforce the rules, for

a bit, against those blatantly in violation, which complicates things greatly. I almost think we should just ignore it silently and see if my guess pans out, but I suppose that is asking a bit too much faith. Sigh.

[Trinidad]

I think it says the World if you think not having your cellphone on your body for 3hours at a bridge tourney is punishment....:)

mike... this is getting old.

I couldn't care less if i have the phone with me or not during the 3hours of bridge.

I *WANT* the phone with me at intermissions between sessions when trying to coordinate lunch/dinner with people, after sessions when i want to go somewhere else... and i don't want to waste 40 minutes of my lunch or dinner break simply retrieving and putting back my f@#$@#$ phone.

So, give it to the tournament director and you will have it back in less than a minute after the bridge. You can make all the arrangements you want to.

 

This arrangement works just fine in high level competitions in The Netherlands. (All phones are handed in at the start of a session, stored in a secure place during the session and can be picked up at the end of the session.)

 

Rik

[finally17]

The rules, which apply to all members, must apply to all members if the ACBL can detain someone (suspected, monitored, etc) for a search of sorts and find on them a cellphone and administer harsh punishment (such as expulsion.)

 

So I hope I am right that my sense is that it is just a tool the ACBL can use to attack a known problem that defies other measures, such as hearings and lawsuits.

I realize that this is way off-topic, but I feel the need to respond anyway. There are some odd assumptions made above.

 

What kind of authority do you think the ACBL has to respond to allegations or even proof of cheating? They don't have the right to detain or search (even a search "of sorts**," whatever that means) anyone, regardless of what they suspect of have proof of. They have no legal authority, and even if they did, cheating is not illegal.

 

Kick cheaters out of an event, suspend them, banish them entirely sure. Strip them of previously granted honors and awards. Perhaps fine them (I'm not even sure about this). But detain and search? The best they could do is insist on a search for further participation, which could just as easily be denied, and they'd probably end up on the wrong end of a lawsuit for that.

 

Again, cheating at bridge is not illegal. It's at worst a violation of implicitly agreed to contracts which may or may not be enforceable but at most would result in a civil suit (which I think is unlikely in the extreme, even in the overly-litigious US).

 

**I question whether these cell phone finders that have been spoken of are even legal for a private entity such as the ACBL to use, if that's what you mean by "search of sorts". I would bet that their legality varies from state to state, and that in many states they're just plain illegal. Which introduces a problem of selective rule enforcement if the ACBL were to use them. I know that if I were to be at an ACBL event and had a director walk up to me with such a device and say "we know you have a cell phone on you," I would in fact take out my cell phone. But rather than handing it over, I would first call the police, and then call a lawyer.

[jkdood]

Excellent point... will we have to (or be asked to) sign a waiver when we pay dues or entry fees?

[mike777]

" would bet that their legality varies from state to state, and that in many states they're just plain illegal. Which introduces a problem of selective rule enforcement if the ACBL were to use them. I know that if I were to be at an ACBL event and had a director walk up to me with such a device and say "we know you have a cell phone on you," I would in fact take out my cell phone. But rather than handing it over, I would first call the police, and then call a lawyer."

 

 

 

 

Ok

 

At this point it really sounds like all my and all your ACBL fees for the next 50 years will go to pay lawyers vs...this guy.

 

I think I said this many posts ago..... :)

 

I keep repeating myself since you guys keep bringing up the same points from days ago :)

 

Hopefully this will stop the ACBL from making any rules in the future...I sue!

 

 

I object!...I sue......see you a million bucks later......this was all said day one..:)

[barmar]

- other form of protest (please describe and organize)

- whenever you're dummy, call ACBL HQ and hang up.

[finally17]

I think I said this many posts ago..... :ph34r:

 

I keep repeating myself since you guys keep bringing up the same points from days ago :)

My bad. I'll try and make sure to at least read every mike777 post before commenting from now on.

[xcurt]

don't see why if the acbl officials think that if the general membership cheats, the general memberships can't suspect the officials are corrupt/biased -- are they not selected from the general pool, after all?

Read the history of bridge at the world level. People cheat. That is axiomatic.

 

If you're seriously considering deliberately violating the ban, then go play in the side game, it may be bridge (as in entertainment) but it's not bridge (as in sport).

 

Also, if you do violate the ban, and someone remembers that you advocated deliberately doing so, then you should expect to be in front of a C&E committee when, as will eventually happen if only by accident, you are caught.

[matmat]

Also, if you do violate the ban, and someone remembers that you advocated deliberately doing so, then you should expect to be in front of a C&E committee when, as will eventually happen if only by accident, you are caught.

 

I suppose if they have a tough time filling their space in the bulletins with actual prosecution of cheaters, they might as well go after people who carry their turned-off cell phone.