whereagles Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Open teams trials, all experts. NV vs V, BUTLER scoring. ♠ 9843 ♥ AQ8 ♦ J75 ♣ Q53 You are dealer and have a 9-11 1NT opener available, with lots of runouts in case of opps doubling. Do you use it or do you downgrade to 8 hcp and pass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 8 is way too risky to open 1NT but 9 is completely safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 OK I'd say that if someone doesn't open 1NT on this one then 9-11 is poor disclosure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted March 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 OK I'd say that if someone doesn't open 1NT on this one then 9-11 is poor disclosure. Why? It's an awful 9 hcp, with flat shape, scattered honors and placement in short suits. I'd say downgrade is perfectly valid judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 It's got an ace and doesn't have Qx or QJ, I think it's far from awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted March 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 See? That's why I posted it. Our judgement is pretty different :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 I would open, but then again I wouldn't agree to play a min-NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Anyway my first sarcastic post did try to make my point. Why would you ever downgrade a 9 count at this vul out of a 9-11 notrump? For one thing when you are playing this treatment you have already thrown safety out the window. But my main point is, the weaker your hand the more random stray honors you will have, I mean probably almost every balanced 9 count has Qx(x) or Jx(x) in it, you can't just downgrade for that every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted March 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 probably almost every balanced 9 count has Qx(x) or Jx(x) in it, you can't just downgrade for that every time. But you can downgrade if you have a couple of suits like that, and flat shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 probably almost every balanced 9 count has Qx(x) or Jx(x) in it, you can't just downgrade for that every time. But you can downgrade if you have a couple of suits like that, and flat shape. So you would rather open a 1NT with a good suit and good shape, say.... xxxxxAKQxxxxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 probably almost every balanced 9 count has Qx(x) or Jx(x) in it, you can't just downgrade for that every time. But you can downgrade if you have a couple of suits like that, and flat shape. Do you want everyone's opinions, or do you want to immediately argue with everyone who doesn't downgrade? foo, I mean whereagles :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted March 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 So you would rather open a 1NT with a good suit and good shape, say.... xxxxxAKQxxxxx No. That one opens 2♦ :) But would prefer 1NT with, say... xxAxxKxxxxQxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted March 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Do you want everyone's opinions, or do you want to immediately argue with everyone who doesn't downgrade? I'm not arguing, I'm discussing :P . By the way, I'm not saying you SHOULD downgrade. I'm just saying you COULD downgrade. Big difference. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 In my mind, this is an absolutely miserable 9 count. 1. You have a 4=3=3=3 shape. 2. You have (significantly) more queens and jacks than aces and kings3. You don't have any 10s, one 9, a couple 8s If there were EVER a hand that should downgrade, this has to be it I'm going to pass. I don't feel at all bad about it. (BTW If always found it interesting that many folks are much more likely to upgrade rather than downgrade) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 If I'm playing 9-11 mini, then this is a 9-11 mini. It's the right vulnerability, and the right position. The whole point of the method is to open a mini as often as you possibly can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 I would open, but then again I wouldn't agree to play a min-NT. Why not? Do you think it is that bad NV against V? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 If I'm playing 9-11 mini, then this is a 9-11 mini. It's the right vulnerability, and the right position. The whole point of the method is to open a mini as often as you possibly can. I'm not entirely comfortable with this line of reasoning: It seems to conflate two separate and distinct issues Issue 1: How wide should our range be if we decide to play a mini NT? Many people would argue that a mini NT is a potent weapon. If we do decide that we want to play a mini NT - and therefore go to a bunch of effort trying to sort out the rest of our NT ladder - lets make sure that we have a fairly wide ranging 1NT opening. In my mind, you're making an argument to play an 8+ to 12- NT or some such... Issue 2: Are we Walruses or do we allow judgement? Alternatively, are all nine counts created equal? In my mind, the question at hand is issue 2: We have agreed to some NT range which (for better or worse) we are describing as 9-11. I am completely comfortable applying judge and upgrading an exception 8 count to a 9-11 NT. In a similar vein, I suspect that there are a number of great 11 counts that I would consider too strong for a 9-11 NT. However, I also believe that there are going to be some 9 counts that are too weak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Just never downgrade a hand out of a NT opener and you'll do fine :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Richard I'm not sure where you got your point about the size of the range from what Frances had typed. It seems to me Frances was reasonably making the point that if you have chosen a range of 9-11 you have probably placed a high priority on the frequency of your 1NT opening (at the expense of safety). On that basis it would pretty much never make sense to downgrade out of that particular range. I also think in your first post you embellish a bit just how bad of a 9 count this is when you make it sound like the world's worst. Below average, sure, but give me this over QJ KQJ xxxx xxxx please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 OK I'd say that if someone doesn't open 1NT on this one then 9-11 is poor disclosure. LOL I would say the opposite but we have had this discussion before. BTW Richard said what I have to say about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 Agree with Nuno that there are 9 counts and 9 counts and this isn't a 9 count. I find it farcical that some downgrade 15 counts and yet say that you can't downgrade a 9 count because you have already thrown safety considerations out the door. Csaba, sorry but to say not opening this is poor dsiclosure is a silly comment. By the way Nuno, I would open AKQxx of D with 1NT and be happy about it. I don't see JT's point at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 If I'm playing 9-11 mini, then this is a 9-11 mini. It's the right vulnerability, and the right position. The whole point of the method is to open a mini as often as you possibly can. Completely agree. That is why we have a four-point range for our mini - although we are a much more conservative 10-13. I don't see the point in playing this method and passing when the vulnerability is right!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 If I'm playing 9-11 mini, then this is a 9-11 mini. It's the right vulnerability, and the right position. The whole point of the method is to open a mini as often as you possibly can. Completely agree. That is why we have a four-point range for our mini - although we are a much more conservative 10-13. I don't see the point in playing this method and passing when the vulnerability is right!!! So Wayne, playing a 15-17 NT you NEVER downgrade? The logic is exactly the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effervesce Posted March 26, 2008 Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 It's fav vul. Why not? 1NT opener for me! :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted March 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2008 Well, for practical purposes, it doesn't matter whether you open 1NT or not. If you do, LHO has a strong NT and will double, after which pard will show his 5 card spade suit and all is well. I was just curious to see whether people would downgrade and pass this hand. Must say I was surprised to see most would open anyway. Thx all. For the record, I would pass most of the time :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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