Standards

[jdonn]

They would have gone further to discredit my opinion by keeping their mouths shut, but they failed at that so they strengthen it.

Are you a politician?

 

After I posted it, I wondered how long it would take your little mutual admiration society to show up and defend you.  Didn't take long.

Guess not.

 

If you want to offend people, go ahead and be that kind of person.  I tend to do my best to avoid that unless there is some greater truth that needs expressing

This comment I found truly....amazing? Audacious? High and mighty? You are better with words than I am, help me out here. Would the world of bridgebase forums crumble without your greater truths that we are in such desperate need of having expressed toward us? Do you think that offends fewer people than a random pointless common expression? You have just made up your own rules for the game. It's bad to offend people, but it's ok in your case when you feel they are in need of your wisdom.

 

Also, feel free do disagree but I do think it's relevant how well established in the society, so to speak, people are. Especially in conjunction with the style of your posts. If you were having a debate with someone would you like some random shmo you have barely seen jumping into the fire to tell you everything that is wrong with your behavior?

[finally17]

If it offends you to have it explained to you how you might be offending others, well then there's some irony there isn't there? And no, I'm not missing the irony you're miserably attempting to point out in my own post, it doesn't exist. I'm well aware that you all are being offended.

 

But the irony is here: you are being offended because you are being told, and refuse to accept, that someone might have legitimately offered offense. I didn't enter this tangent of the discussion to offend anyone, I entered it because I found a post ABOUT A LEGITIMATE COMPLAINT ignorant, offensive, and completely without merit. My findings might bother you, but I submit that that's because they're true.

 

Also, feel free do disagree but I do think it's relevant how well established in the society, so to speak, people are. Especially in conjunction with the style of your posts. If you were having a debate with someone would you like some random shmo you have barely seen jumping into the fire to tell you everything that is wrong with your behavior?

 

I don't disagree with the first part of this point. It alone among the several you tried to make has some merit. However firstly, I question whether it's applicable to me or not, and I conclude in fact that no, it is not. Just because you and your little MAS dominate the bridge-discussion thread hardly means you're the only one here. There are many with my level of posting and reading, and you have no standing from which to disenfranchise us in the manner you want to.

 

Furthermore it's not remotely what Han said. He made a distinction between "serious posters" and ... some other group he didn't distinguish. If it's what he meant, for whatever reasons, it's not what can be understood. But even so it doesn't matter, see above.

 

Lastly, the style of my posts? You and your MAS are the ones who regularly attempt to mock people into submission. That kind of posting is what got me started here, and when I dared to stand up to it, it was that kind of posting that attempted to thrust me out of it. My posts? Really? Wow. That's amazing. The style of my posts is to explain thoroughly my views on the situation, so as much as I can help it there can be no question. The mockery, the refusal to accept that others are bothered when they say bluntly that they are, that is a problem style.

[kenberg]

My wish(es):

 

Everyone continues to post as they see fit.

Moderators moderate as they see fit.

When their are clashes they get resolved by the principals without 150 or so posts.

 

Anyone for a beer? I'l buy the fiorst round.

Don't your first and third wishes contradict each other? Everyone here is posting how they see fit.

A clash, yes, but I think no contradiction. There have been, I think, some posts suggesting that some people need to change their style. If, after hearing comments, someone decides to change his/her style, fine. If not, that is also fine by me. That was the intended thrust of number 1. People post as they think best, and change style if, and only if, they choose to. In the case of 2/3, I can imagine that a moderator might decide something is over the top. So he exercises his/her powers. The poster objects. The poster and the moderator can discuss this between themselves. The moderator has the power of the mouse, but perhaps he/she comes to see it the poster's way after hearing poster's arguments. Or perhaps not. The poster posts, the moderator mods. Sometimes there is a clash.

 

In practice: Jilly posts about tits. The moderator edits the post. Jilly writes to the moderator with her views. The moderator decides, maybe undoing his edit, maybe not. The rest of us stay out of it. However it works out, I don't give a *****. (In this modern world I can say that, yes?)

 

I see no contradiction.

 

The (or a) moderator started this to ask our views on how he was doing. I have no complaints. I have never had anything removed, I have never been warned, I have never gone into a faint over the language. Except on this thread, I rarely talk about shitting, *****ing, or the size of my balls. I believe my friends appreciate this restraint.

 

Short version:

a. No need to change a thing.

b. I have bigger fish to fry.

 

 

And I still suggest that it is time, past time, for a round of beer. Way too much has been said about this.

[han]

Way too much has been said about this.

[mikeh]

wow... a real flame war is breaking out!

 

I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with part of what just about everybody has written.

 

I suspect that one reason so many of us are getting steamed up is that we read the words of others through our own eyes, and pre-conceptions, biases, world-views, facility with written English, cultural beliefs and so on.

 

I have many times said something that I intended as a joke... I have what some would call a dry sense of humour and what others would regard as weird or non-existent.. and found that what I intended as parody or absurdity was taken at face value and found offensive... and that is face to face! I also know, from bitter experience, that the problem (for me) is exacerbated when I confine my 'humour' to written form.. because, absent emoticons, the message is devoid of body language, tone, pacing, facial expression and all of the other non-verbal cues that we rely upon in normal ftf discourse to complement the actual words.

 

So I read some of the criticism of finally17 as really challenging his right to speak based upon his lack of standing in the (small) community of frequent posters, and I agree with those who say that this is a bullshit reason to attack his posts on this topic. I also recognize that I may have misunderstood the intentions of (at least some of) those posters.

 

And I read finally17's comments about han and justin and the 'mutual admiration society' and thought that he had missed the point of the posts that prompted that reaction.

 

As someone who often allows his buttons to be pushed (far more so in real life, I am afraid, than on these forums.. and I'm not especially calm here.. so imagine!) can I suggest that we stop the personal attacks? I know that every post of the nature of the last few engenders a powerful desire to respond, but maybe we can hold off for a while.

 

In my business, when another lawyer really pisses me off, I will dictate a 'window-ledge letter'. I let loose with all my anger.... and I have a very good command of language in that regard.... and then I put the letter on the windowledge of my office and leave it there for at least 3 days. I have never sent one of those letters... by the time I look at it again, the immediacy of my anger has subsided and I deal with the issue in a more useful way. The problem with this forum is that it is too easy to press send.

 

We have a pretty good community here... some of don't get along here ... look at the occasional flame war I engage in with whereagles... and maybe I'm being a bit of a hypocrite given how I sometimes behave, but I think we should can the personal attacks for a few days. By all means, type your diatribe... you are assuredly right in how you feel... then save it and look at it again next week and post it if you still feel as strongly as you do now... I bet you won't :)

[nige1]

I will still not post “Jesus Christ! I bid this poorly, this auction is f’ed  or look what a cretin I was here”  because I know someone is very likely to find it objectionable.

I agree: such language is just inconsiderate and lazy :)

And I swear I will not post about this again  :)

Wash out your mouth with carbolic :)

[jtfanclub]

And yes, I do realize I will get flamed for this post but I think it's hillarious that you guys cannot see how out of control this situation is. CAN WE PUT THINGS IN PROPORTION PLEASE?

Out of control how? I see people venting about the usual crud. Nobody's left in tears or quit or anything. I'm glad it's here, instead of in the bridge forums.

 

I do think it's important that people not be ridiculed for saying that they were offended. On the other hand, just because somebody is offended doesn't mean that the moderators need to swoop in like flying monkeys. Sometimes the right answer is "I accept that you were offended, it wasn't my intent, and I'm not going to change it".

[matmat]

y'all need to get laid.

[Finch]

Go on, educate an ignorant limey.

 

What are MAS?

[sceptic]

If you want to offend people, go ahead and be that kind of person.  I tend to do my best to avoid that unless there is some greater truth that needs expressing

 

This comment I found truly....amazing? Audacious? High and mighty? You are better with words than I am, help me out here. Would the world of bridgebase forums crumble without your greater truths that we are in such desperate need of having expressed toward us? Do you think that offends fewer people than a random pointless common expression? You have just made up your own rules for the game. It's bad to offend people, but it's ok in your case when you feel they are in need of your wisdom.

 

well for once I find myself agreeing with jdonn

 

 

Lastly, the style of my posts? You and your MAS are the ones who regularly attempt to mock people into submission. That kind of posting is what got me started here, and when I dared to stand up to it, it was that kind of posting that attempted to thrust me out of it. My posts? Really? Wow. That's amazing. The style of my posts is to explain thoroughly my views on the situation, so as much as I can help it there can be no question. The mockery, the refusal to accept that others are bothered when they say bluntly that they are, that is a problem style.

 

I wish I could write and explain myself as well as you

[Al_U_Card]

Provide all that you can and take only what you need and leave the rest.

[Guest Jlall]

Go on, educate an ignorant limey.

 

What are MAS?

I'm going to guess "Mutual Admiration Society"... personally I am offended he could think I would ever admire Han. But I admire you Frances ♥

[Walddk]

Go on, educate an ignorant limey.

 

What are MAS?

MAS stands for ...

 

Monetary Authority (of) Singapore

Muslim American Society

The Municipal Art Society (of New York)

Market Analysis System

Movimiento al Socialismo (Bolivia)

Midtfyns Amatør Scene (Denmark)

Manufacturing Advisory Service

Musicians Answering Service

Micro Analog Systems

Microbeam Analysis Society

 

... and about 129 other things. Take your pick.

 

Roland

[jtfanclub]

MAS stands for ...

.

.

.

.

.

.

No MAS!

[brianshark]

Nice post by mikeh.

[jdonn]

"Mutual Admiration Society"... personally I am offended he could think I would ever admire Han.

The feeling is mutual

[finally17]

sorry kenberg, mikeh. i considered what you said. you're probably right, but i'm going to say the below anyway. it goes to some very disturbing cultural trends here, which are being ignored in favor of mob mentality.

 

you people are amazing. you are almost all blind to the culture you are creating here. you allow a select few, for pitifully weak reasons, to dominate the tone of discussion, regardless of topic. you act as if these select few can say nothing wrong.

 

-someone complains that they take issue with a post

-that complaint is mocked

-I take vehement objection to the mockery

 

and there is a gang attack on me, how dare I agree that something can be offensive? how dare I take exception to the endemic mockery in this forum? i was loud and verbose, absolutely, because i am sickened by the attitude that was not only expressed, but is ignored by some and allowed to flourish by many.

 

and it's not even just by the MMS.

 

rather than make an effort to be considerate of the reasonable offense someone expressed, you act like a gang of wolves attacking those who do. almost universal refusal to actually examine the situation, an almost universal mob mentality, unwritten agreement to team up with the local powerful, because how dare you end up disagreeing with them! they might mock you next time you want to ask them a bridge question!

 

but that's no reason to be silent, and i'm not going to apologize for not. i'm not going to remain silent just because a few people reasonably think the argument isnt that big a deal. they're right, the argument isn't, but the greater issues that caused the argument are. i may have made enemies of half a dozen or more, but sometimes the list of one's enemies is the biggest badge of honor one can wear, and i submit with confidence that as regards this forum, that's the case.

 

whatever. post 279 i guess, my last one, because i don't care enough to try and continue to deal with such people, and what they have to offer as regards bridge isn't enough to deal with their pitifully wrong superiority complexes.

 

go ahead and have your party now, i'm out.

[jdonn]

kenberg, mikeh.  i considered what you said.  you're probably right

 

you people are amazing

(thank you!)

 

i was loud and verbose

 

i'm not going to remain silent

 

Finally we can all agree on some things you say!

 

post 279 i guess,  my last one

 

Ok, that time I don't believe you.

 

You realize you got virtually no response to your last post, mostly because I didn't care enough to completely tear it to shreds (well ok, in everyone's mind but yours), so you felt the need to continue your tirade as a response to the post that merely asked everyone to cease their tirades, since there was nothing further that was actually objectionable for you to respond to. I mean, think about that! And all when your arguments consist entirely of:

 

- Calling every post you have a dispute with 'pitiful' or some version of that multiple times, but your points 'reasonable' or something similar. Which, by the way, creates the opposite impression in the mind of the reader.

- Claiming your own rules on when offending people is fine.

- Insulting the entire community at once (we sure are amazing people).

- Asserting the right and the need to shower us with your greater truths.

- Claiming that everyone not liking your or caring what you say is a badge of honor (half dozen lol).

 

Enjoy your vacation from the thread. I'm sorry that our conduct is not conforming to your greater good, but hopefully we can all find a way to go on.

[Guest Jlall]

OK....gonna resist the urge to post internet...serious business picture again.

 

whatever. post 279 i guess, my last one, because i don't care enough to try and continue to deal with such people, and what they have to offer as regards bridge isn't enough to deal with their pitifully wrong superiority complexes.

 

Well it's good to see you don't care much :)

 

 

Dude on a serious note just take a step back and chill. It's just an internet message forum. I really hope you are ok and don't try to hurt yourself or anyone else over any of this because it's not worth it. If you ever want to talk about anything then I would be glad to listen to you, Good luck.

[luke warm]

sorry kenberg, mikeh.  i considered what you said.  you're probably right, but i'm going to say the below anyway.  it goes to some very disturbing cultural trends here, which are being ignored in favor of mob mentality.

i've stayed out of this, for the most part, but i have to ask - just who do you think you are? the arbiter of cultural trends? people who disagree with you do so because they're hallucinating, because they're in the midst of some sort of mob mentality? does that seem even slightly arrogant to you?

you people are amazing.  you are almost all blind to the culture you are creating here.  you allow a select few, for pitifully weak reasons, to dominate the tone of discussion, regardless of topic.  you act as if these select few can say nothing wrong.

wow... which select few? which pitifully weak reasons? should posters run their ideas past you first to see if the reason(s) behind those ideas are suitably strong and meet your standard of cultural relevance?

i may have made enemies of half a dozen or more, but sometimes the list of one's enemies is the biggest badge of honor one can wear, and i submit with confidence that as regards this forum, that's the case.

i have no idea who you are, but having read a *lot* of posts on this forum i can honestly say that the above paragraph is the most judgmental one i've read in quite a while

[sceptic]

interesting, we just lost a poster, quite an articulate inteligent one from what I could see, (some may think a good thing, some may not) personally I do not agree with some of his views and I am sure he does not agree with some of mine.

 

One thing for sure, maybe we are all guilty of causing some of the crap in here and should look no further than the mirror to see who is to blame.

 

I think there is a gang mentality on here, but I do not blame the two posters that were named in the MAS, I prefer the expression the forum elite, but they know who they are, I realise that some in here probably ignore some of my posts, so they wont read this, but I am sure that finally17 was not the first bullied or plain frustrated out the forums and wont be the last.

 

I think maybe tollerance is missing here, something a lot of us should make a greater effort to try and have, maybe the thread Uday started about standards was for a good reason, maybe, if some accept they are over the top and others accept not everyone has such high standards as them selves, we would not lose other posters, I am not on a moral high horse here, I have nothing to be proud of with some of my posts, but I know there is something I can do personally to improve the perceptions of the forums, for newcomers, something I think we all owe Fred and Uday a bit of respect for what they give us.

 

I for one will try and curb my frustrations (be that lack of written skills or just plain disrespect for some one elses attitude, maybe if some of us take a step back and read some of the threads from an objective stance, we may realise what a load of idiots some of us look

 

 

My apologys to anyone that cares enough to realise I am genuine in this and I will try and have more respect for others opinions in the future

[Fluffy]

Sorry I got lost with all the posts here, just wanna know if we finally banned the F-word and the G-word.

[matmat]

Sorry I got lost with all the posts here, just wanna know if we finally banned the F-word and the G-word.

no, you can freely use both your username and your first name.

[JLOGIC]

Retroactive POSTIE for finally17 imo

[lalldonn]

My favorite alltime necro.

 

I really appreciate you all, my MAS.