Off shape takeout doubles

[y66]

MPs, r/r, RHO opens 1D in 3rd.

 

When you double with flat shape, do you promise extra values?

 

Do you double with these hands?

 

1) KJx, AKJx, xxx, JTx

 

2) AKQx, xxx, xxx, KJx

 

Do you consider overcalling 1S on (2)?

[effervesce]

Without discussion, double of 1 lvl bids should show the usual classic takeout double shapes of 4414/4405/4423 short in their suit unless the hand has extra values.

 

I overcall 1H on the first hand, and 1S on the second. I dont like the fact that they're only 4 card suits vul but its MPs and you do not want partner to make a wrong lead.

[whereagles]

1. When you double with flat shape, do you promise extra values?

 

2. Do you double with these hands?

KJx, AKJx, xxx, JTx

AKQx, xxx, xxx, KJx

 

3. Do you consider overcalling 1S on (2)?

1. Usually, yes.

 

2 and 3. Yes. Might indeed bid 1♠ on 2nd.

[andy_h]

1. No, doesn't necessarily promise "extra values". A flat 12 or 13 count, and with at most 1 honour in the opponent's suit I would Dbl. As you may not have the classic t/o X, it is generally still good to Dbl to fight for the part score. I mean, if you decide to pass you may never be able to come back into the auction again without involving a lot of risk. So bid now, and get it off your chest, as partner would know you have 3+cards in the remaining suits.

 

2. Yes and no.

3. I would overcall 1S.

[rogerclee]

It doesn't promise "extras", but I'd auto-double on any 4414 10-count (okay, maybe not QJxx Qxxx K Qxxx) and auto-pass any 4333 10-count.

 

Double on the first, 1♠ on the second.

[655321]

Agree with Double on (1) and 1♠ on (2).

[brianshark]

Both those hand have extras. I would require more suitable shape if either had about a Q or K less.

 

I would double on both, except maybe overcall on the second one some days. There is no pressing need to overcall on the first hand since I have stuff in all 3 side-suits.

[awm]

I would overcall 1♥ on the first and 1♠ on the second.

 

Certainly double shows a better hand when I have more length in the opposing suit. Generally I will double with 4414 ten-count or a 4423 twelve-count or a 4333 fourteen-count. With a 4405 hand I might double on an eight-count.

 

But when overcalling a strong four-card major is a possibility I will often prefer to do this, especially with 4333 shape. On these hands I would much rather play a 4-3 fit in my four card major than a 4-3 fit in my three-card major, since there is no way I am ruffing anything and my four card major is quite robust.

[han]

1♠ is 100% clear on the second.

 

The first is closer between double and 1♥, I would double.

[foo]

1♠ is 100% clear on the second.

 

The first is closer between double and 1♥, I would double.

Don't whether I would X or overcall 1H on 1st. Agree in all other ways.

[Cascade]

It doesn't promise "extras", but I'd auto-double on any 4414 10-count (okay, maybe not QJxx Qxxx K Qxxx) and auto-pass any 4333 10-count.

 

Double on the first, 1♠ on the second.

And how is that different than the offshape double showing extras?

[Cascade]

I think 2. is close between double and 1♥

 

I would overcall 1♠ on 3.

[rogerclee]

It doesn't promise "extras", but I'd auto-double on any 4414 10-count (okay, maybe not QJxx Qxxx K Qxxx) and auto-pass any 4333 10-count.

 

Double on the first, 1♠ on the second.

And how is that different than the offshape double showing extras?

I think it is obvious that there is some shape-points tradeoff in making takeout doubles, so I felt the question was whether an offshape double provides significant extras.

 

I think the answer is no.

[Guest Jlall]

I really don't like a 1H overcall on hand 1. I don't see much bad happening after a t/o X and think it will land us in the right strain way more often than overcalling 1H. I don't think the lead value is close to enough to overcome this.

[effervesce]

I really don't like a 1H overcall on hand 1. I don't see much bad happening after a t/o X and think it will land us in the right strain way more often than overcalling 1H. I don't think the lead value is close to enough to overcome this.

With a random partner, sure, X for the first. But me and my partner know we often overcall 4 card suits-he'll take that into account.

[pclayton]

I pass on the 1st. I have the death holding in RHO's suit and too many losers to count. If I double on a 4333, I have a slightly better hand. Double could work out fine, but I want pard to feel comfortable bidding at the 2 level when our LHO takes a call, and I think this is a pretty crappy dummy.

 

1♠ or double on the 2nd.

[Codo]

I would double on both. Thie first is the absolute minimum for this shape, and the second is just a descission between 1 Spade and X, I would X.

[P_Marlowe]

#Q1 yes

#Q2 No, one of the fews things I am really against it

#Q3 yes

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[kenrexford]

YNY