Swanna introduce those hearts?

[Echognome]

[hv=d=s&v=e&s=sakt8753hakq5d2c8]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♠ - 1NT

?[/hv]

 

What say you?

 

Edit: You are playing 2/1 or other natural system.

[Guest Jlall]

3H

[Fluffy]

4♠, 7-4 are 1 suiters.

[Cascade]

3H

Isn't there some danger that partner with 1=3 in the majors and one or other minor unstopped will raise to 4♥?

[Cascade]

Playing our form of Gazzilli I think I can bid 3♠ forcing and then correct 3NT to 4♥ to show this sort of hand.

[Guest Jlall]

3H

Isn't there some danger that partner with 1=3 in the majors and one or other minor unstopped will raise to 4♥?

Yes, no one said you have to pass 4H if that happens.

[kfay]

I'm bidding 3♥ then 4♠ later. I'll regret this after I end up in 5M-1.

[Cascade]

3H

Isn't there some danger that partner with 1=3 in the majors and one or other minor unstopped will raise to 4♥?

Yes, no one said you have to pass 4H if that happens.

Assuming you bid 4♠ over 4♥ is this clearly an offer to play in a different strain and forward going.

 

For me it would be unconditionally a cue for hearts.

[jdonn]

3H

Isn't there some danger that partner with 1=3 in the majors and one or other minor unstopped will raise to 4♥?

Yes, no one said you have to pass 4H if that happens.

Assuming you bid 4♠ over 4♥ is this clearly an offer to play in a different strain and forward going.

 

For me it would be unconditionally a cue for hearts.

3♥ for me.

 

Wouldn't you be worth a cuebid anyway? You need four hearts and an ace for slam, essentially.

[andy_h]

I like 3H

[mikeh]

I voted for other, and despite the caution, I will explain

 

If forced to play without gadgets, I'd vote for 3♥ and correct 4♥ to 4♠... which would not be a cue or kickback but a 6=4 or 7=4.

 

But I'd like to use 3♣ here: to show either a 4 card heart suit or a monster, power one-suiter in spades... I don't even have to decide which just yet :rolleyes:

 

That way, partner will be less inclined to raise to 4♥ (should I choose to show the suit) without 4 card support. Partner usually bids 3♦ as a relay to ask if I have the majors (with precisely 4 hearts), a black 2-suiter, or just spades

[hrothgar]

Would have opened 4♠ to begin with

 

Given the start to the auction, I'd rebid 3♥

[jdonn]

Would have opened 4♠ to begin with

I know this is your style and usually I don't comment, since we don't need this debate every time. However doesn't this hand just need too little for slam? To put it another way, if you are going to use this style I think you have much better odds opening this hand 6♠.

[hrothgar]

Would have opened 4♠ to begin with

I know this is your style and usually I don't comment, since we don't need this debate every time. However doesn't this hand just need too little for slam? To put it another way, if you are going to use this style I think you have much better odds opening this hand 6♠.

I'm guessing that this hand will average 11 tricks... Don't you rate to lose an Ace and a Spade?

 

Maybe Tim (or someone) could do a simulation...

[jdonn]

Would have opened 4♠ to begin with

I know this is your style and usually I don't comment, since we don't need this debate every time. However doesn't this hand just need too little for slam? To put it another way, if you are going to use this style I think you have much better odds opening this hand 6♠.

I'm guessing that this hand will average 11 tricks... Don't you rate to lose an Ace and a Spade?

 

Maybe Tim (or someone) could do a simulation...

It's true part of my optimism may be due to the potential in hearts, which is even greater if partner has say a singleton spade. But I guess that's why I open 1♠ to begin with :rolleyes: However even off an ace and a spade they could easily lead the wrong minor, which is part of why you open this way anyway I assume.

[han]

I didn't see the 4S mixed strategy coming this time. That is a hilarious example of taking a good idea further than any sensible person should take it. WOW

[Cascade]

3H

Isn't there some danger that partner with 1=3 in the majors and one or other minor unstopped will raise to 4♥?

Yes, no one said you have to pass 4H if that happens.

Assuming you bid 4♠ over 4♥ is this clearly an offer to play in a different strain and forward going.

 

For me it would be unconditionally a cue for hearts.

3♥ for me.

 

Wouldn't you be worth a cuebid anyway? You need four hearts and an ace for slam, essentially.

Yes that is not the problem it is avoid a silly 4♥ when we belong in spades that is a problem.

[hrothgar]

I didn't see the 4S mixed strategy coming this time. That is a hilarious example of taking a good idea further than any sensible person should take it. WOW

I have no problem if you consider the 4♠ bid hilarious/asinine/whatever. However, I feel obliged to point out that the 4♠ is an example of a "pure" strategy, not a mixed strategy...

 

I am arguing in favor of deterministically opening 4♠.

I am not suggesting randomizing across some set of bids (1♠, 2♣, 4♠, etc)

[han]

Yes I know Richard, you are right, you have been very consistent.

[Cascade]

Would have opened 4♠ to begin with

I know this is your style and usually I don't comment, since we don't need this debate every time. However doesn't this hand just need too little for slam? To put it another way, if you are going to use this style I think you have much better odds opening this hand 6♠.

I'm guessing that this hand will average 11 tricks... Don't you rate to lose an Ace and a Spade?

 

Maybe Tim (or someone) could do a simulation...

1000 hands double dummy.

 

This hand predealt no other constraints.

 

Spades made:

 

 [space] [space]7 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]1
[space] [space]8 [space] [space] [space] [space] 17
[space] [space]9 [space] [space] [space] [space] 71
[space] 10 [space] [space] [space] [space]188
[space] 11 [space] [space] [space] [space]390
[space] 12 [space] [space] [space] [space]269
[space] 13 [space] [space] [space] [space] 64

Hearts made :

 

 [space] [space]4 [space] [space] [space] [space] [space]7
[space] [space]5 [space] [space] [space] [space] 21
[space] [space]6 [space] [space] [space] [space] 57
[space] [space]7 [space] [space] [space] [space]106
[space] [space]8 [space] [space] [space] [space]133
[space] [space]9 [space] [space] [space] [space]118
[space] 10 [space] [space] [space] [space]113
[space] 11 [space] [space] [space] [space]230
[space] 12 [space] [space] [space] [space]172
[space] 13 [space] [space] [space] [space] 43

Hearts made more than spades 158/1000

 

Draw your own conclusion but I think it worth investigating slam and exploring for a heart fit.

[the hog]

1S followed by 4S. I am not going to introduce the H suit here.

[Guest Jlall]

Wayne no offense but I think it is horrible to play 4S after 1S-1N-3H-4H-4S as a cuebid. I mean, what kind of agreement is that? If you want to cuebid so badly you can cuebid a minor. To me it is normal to jump shift into a side suit, possibly even a fragment, and then go back to your own suit quite often. I see a lot of utility in being able to bid 7-4 this way, or AKQxxx AKx xx Kx this way (barring any conventional way to bid this hand), and I see no utility in being able to cuebid 4S.

 

I also think it is obvious that hearts could be our suit for SLAM very easily, and if partner bids 4 of a minor over 3H we can easily get to 6 or 7 hearts after bidding blackwood.

 

Jdonn, I see people do what you did very often but it is definitely not true that we need just 4 hearts and an ace for slam. We need FIVE hearts and an ace, and with that partner is already close to cuebidding. We also have no 5 level safety, so I don't think you should drive there.

[Cascade]

Justin

 

We have a general rule that once we have bid and agreed one major then we can not get to an alternative contract below slam. This rule has stood us in good stead. One advantage is that we give less information to the opponents this way. Another advantage is that it simplifies our agreements. Especially since in most auctions we use kickback to ask for key cards.

 

There are some exceptions where we can get to No Trumps (but often 3NT is a non-serious try or a spade cue over heart agreement at the three-level). And some other exceptions in competitive auctions where we might raise partner initially and then offer an alternative strain.

 

I can see how on this particular auction it doesn't add much cue-bidding in spades since it is all but inconceivable that we would be making a slam try without a spade control. Perhaps something like

 

♠ QJ10xxx

♥ AKxxx

♦ A

♣ A

 

is possible.

 

Also we avoid bidding a fragment. I can't honestly remember the last time I have needed to do this as my rebid in my regular partnership in an uncontested auction. Sometimes in competition when our normal rebid has been disturbed by the competition we will rebid a fragment.

[jdonn]

Jdonn, I see people do what you did very often but it is definitely not true that we need just 4 hearts and an ace for slam. We need FIVE hearts and an ace, and with that partner is already close to cuebidding. We also have no 5 level safety, so I don't think you should drive there.

esˈsentially adverb

basically

 

ba·si·cal·ly (bā'sĭ-kə-lē, -klē) Pronunciation Key

adv.

for the most part

[Guest Jlall]

Jdonn, I see people do what you did very often but it is definitely not true that we need just 4 hearts and an ace for slam. We need FIVE hearts and an ace, and with that partner is already close to cuebidding. We also have no 5 level safety, so I don't think you should drive there.

esˈsentially adverb

basically

 

ba·si·cal·ly (bā'sĭ-kə-lē, -klē) Pronunciation Key

adv.

for the most part

No, for the most part you don't need 4 hearts and 1 ace. You need another trump or another ace or the SQ. Essentially is wrong since you are off by one huge card.