What does partner's auction show

[jdonn]

You open 1NT

 

1NT (3♣) DBL (P)

3♦ (P) 3♠ (P)

 

What sort of hand has partner shown?

 

Edit: Forgot to mention DBL agreed as "negative"

[the hog]

3S would have been a gf., so 3S after the double should be an invitational hand with 5 good or 6 cards in S.

[han]

I haven't discussed this auction but I would play it as forcing. I don't think that opener can pass below game after the negative double at the 3-level.

 

Two hands for responder make sense to me here, one is a hand with 5 spades and 4 hearts, the other is a balanced hand without club stopper and a strong 4-card spade suit. I would assume the former at the table.

 

Oh wanted to add, invitational hands with 6 spades bid 4S, they don't double.

[andy_h]

Without any agreements, I'd say invitational hand with 5 spades and possibly 4 hearts. Partner probably won't whip out this auction on us and intend it as forcing if we had 3S direct as forcing.

[Cascade]

We play this as game force with only five spades and a jump to 3♠ as six spades slammish.

 

I am sure this is not standard though.

 

We give up on inviting in competition most of the time.

[Finch]

Funny, I would just assume it is game forcing with 4 spades. I give up on invitations after the 3C overcall and bid 3S with five spades.

 

I would expect responder to have something like

 

KQxx

Kxx

Axx

xxx

 

Certainly,

 

1NT (3C) x (P)

3D (P) 3H

 

can be 4-4-3-2, and might have 4-card diamond support.

 

But all this is slightly predicated on opener's actions: holding a 4-card major and 4 diamonds would you bid diamonds or the major over partner's double?

 

Are you allowed to open 1NT with 5 diamodns and a 4-card major? If so, would you bid diamonds or the major over the double?

[benlessard]

Modern treatment is to play that you are forcing up to 3Nt/4D. So either 4 good S and no club stopper or 5 bad spades + 4H + at least half a stopper ( a hand that you dont want to bid 3S followed by 4H)

[helene_t]

Maybe this is pedantic, but the term "negative" means that X followed by 3♠ is weaker than 3♠ directly, doesn't it? I would prefer to call it "GF t/o" if that is what it means.

 

Maybe if the sort of Lebensohl we play is that a direct 3♠ over 2♣ would promise a stopper while 2N followed by 3♠ would deny, we could play the same here. Dbl followed by 3♠ shows 5 (or maybe just 4?) spades and denies a stopper.

[han]

Yes pedantic, and I think also poorly pedantic because "negative" in negative double refers to the inability to make another call, not to the weakness of the hand.

 

In my first pass I said "jump to 4S" while I should have said "jump to 4H transfer".

 

By the way, I remember Fred posting something over 2NT-(3C) that made a lot of sense, would it work just as well over 1NT-(3C)?

[whereagles]

There's a case for it showing 4 hearts + 5 spades, no? In that case it must be forcing.

[gwnn]

I'd definitely play partner for 5-4 in the majors. Probably 6-4 would just bid 4S.

[hotShot]

Why didn't P bid 3♠?

I expect him to have a 2nd suit and he is to weak to bid both of them. At playable level. Most likely he is 5(4)♠, 4♥, 2♦ and 2♣.

Depending on your NT range he is just invitational in strength.

[helene_t]

Yes pedantic, and I think also poorly pedantic because "negative" in negative double refers to the inability to make another call, not to the weakness of the hand.

As far as I can tell from various online resources, the term "negative" refers to the implied shortness in opps' suit (the term referred to t/o doubles of an opening bid rather than an overcall). For example, WikiPedia writes:

 

The term negative double was initially employed to distinguish it from the penalty, or business, or positive double, and signified a double for take-out. Sometime around 1930, the term informatory double replaced negative double, and that term later gave way to take-out double as it is used at present. As terminology changed, the original term "negative" double fell into disuse.

 

I thought it was the same "negative" as in "negative freebid", ie you show the weak hand with a long major either by a negative freebid or a negative double. Learned something new.

[pclayton]

Is partner old school? When I learned the game 25 years ago, 3♠ over 3♣ was NF and this is how you show a GF hand with spades.

 

Now, I think this sequence would indicate 5♠ / 4♥.

[jdonn]

Is partner old school? When I learned the game 25 years ago, 3♠ over 3♣ was NF and this is how you show a GF hand with spades.

 

Now, I think this sequence would indicate 5♠ / 4♥.

Partner is me. So not really!

[han]

Thanks Helene, I didn't knwo that either. Are you going to tell us the story Josh?

[jdonn]

I thought partner should auto pass on what he had, I had....very little. He bid 3NT with a 2353 15.

[Apollo81]

I'd assume responder had an invitational or a bit worse hand with 5+♠. He was trying to compete over 3♣ and didn't mind defending doubled, so he has some values and there are some hands opener can have that would raise.

[Guest Jlall]

I would have given this a "wtp 5S, 4H, forcing"

[inquiry]

if 3♠ is forcing, why didn't anyone discuss the possibility of smolen like with 5♥ and 4♠?

 

Anyway, spades and hearts, forcing i would think.

[mike777]

As a nonexpert I would have guessed natural and forcing, we can never stop short of game once responder bids again.

 

Here is what bws says......after reading it I have no idea. :)

 

C. Competition After Our One-Notrump Opening

 

After competition following our one-notrump opening:

(a) A double of a natural two- or three-level overcall is negative, of a higher bid is for penalty.

 

(:P Over a two-level overcall: lebensohl [two notrump is a puppet to three clubs and responder’s rebid below three of overcaller’s suit is nonforcing; a direct bid of three of an underranking suit is forcing] applies, with “fast denies stopper” for cue-bid and three-notrump direct responses versus responder’s rebids following a two-notrump response. An artificial action is treated as though it had been a natural bid in an anchor suit indicated.

 

© A below-game new-suit jump is forcing.

 

(d) A redouble of an artificial double is strength-showing.

 

(e) A double of an artificial bid suggests a penalty double of the escape.

 

(f) After any penalty suggestion: the opening side is forced to two notrump, below-game new-suit bids are forcing, raises and two notrump are not forcing.

 

(g) A bid in a suit shown by an artificial defense indicates at least a game-invitation and is forcing to two notrump.

 

(h) Bids in suits not indicated (although possibly bid) by an artificial action have the same meaning as if the interference had been a natural bid in an indicated suit [for example, one notrump — (two hearts, showing spades) — three hearts is equivalent to one notrump — (two spades, natural) — three hearts].

 

(i) one notrump — (overcall) — pass — (pass) — double is for takeout, but one notrump — (pass) — pass — (overcall) — double is for penalty.

 

 

 

After one notrump — (pass) — two clubs — (double) — ?, opener should determine his action by first evaluating his club holding (bid if especially weak, pass if average, redouble if especially strong). [default] { take his normal action had intervenor passed when that action is a major-suit bid (otherwise examine his club holding). [leaf] }

 

After a two-level transfer response to one notrump is doubled [e.g., one notrump — (pass) — two hearts = spades — (double) — ?], opener should

 

(a) superaccept (bid above two of the suit indicated by responder) with any of the same, or roughly the same, set of hands that would have been suitable for superacceptance had intervenor passed;

 

(:) accept (or, if appropriate, superaccept) the transfer with at least three-card support for the suit indicated by responder;

 

© redouble rather than pass with significant length and strength in the suit bid.

 

 

 

 

 

D. Competition After Our Major-Suit Opening

(See also section F., below)

 

In responding to a major-suit opening over a takeout double

[mike777]

if 3♠ is forcing, why didn't anyone discuss the possibility of smolen like with 5♥ and 4♠?

 

Anyway, spades and hearts, forcing i would think.

Yes perhaps Smolen is best. :ph34r:

 

Some of my pards tell me this is what this auction means, now if I just remember it when it comes up in two years. :D