gnasher Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 When is a 15-count not a 15-count? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mud Reelo Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 If I were playing a weak NT, maybe (just maybe) I'd downgrade it. If 15 points is in my NT range, I would never ever downgrade. Ever Opening 1NT is g00t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 It's got two aces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted March 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 True. But it also has five quacks, no spot cards above the eight, and only one four card suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerclee Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 I think it is funny that most people would auto-open this 1N but would probably open xx AKTx AKxx xxx 1♦. This is about as good as a below-average balanced 14-count. Clear downgrade, would open this a 14-16NT. I think I would consider opening this a 15-17 1N only if white at MPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 What's a 14.5 - 17 NT? I thought that is what's usually called "15-17". So maybe the question is what's a 15 - 17 NT if there is such a thing as a 14.5 - 17 NT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
655321 Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Sometimes a 14 count is a 15 count, but a 15 count is never a 14 count. I don't think it is ever right to downgrade a balanced hand when deciding whether to open 1NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finch Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 I think it is funny that most people would auto-open this 1N but would probably open xx AKTx AKxx xxx 1♦. This is about as good as a below-average balanced 14-count. Clear downgrade, would open this a 14-16NT. I think I would consider opening this a 15-17 1N only if white at MPs. Well, I didn't open Kxx AKxx Kx A10xx 1NT on Monday it was too good. Anyway, if this is from last night, and gnasher was playing with one of my regular partners, then I know that the partner doesn't like downgrades - he has disagreed with 2 of the last 3 15s that I downgraded. And he announces our opening as "15-17 could be a good 14". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted March 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Well, I didn't open Kxx AKxx Kx A10xx 1NT on Monday it was too good.I think that clearly worth upgrading.Anyway, if this is from last night, and gnasher was playing with one of my regular partners, then I know that the partner doesn't like downgrades - he has disagreed with 2 of the last 3 15s that I downgraded.It is, and I was, but he was the only one to express any support for my decision to downgrade this. I expect he thinks I need an extra point or two to make up for the way I play the cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegill Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 I think the tactical advantages of opening 1NT far outweigh the fact that this may be only worth as much as some 14-counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benlessard Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 IMHO the hand is borderline so its more important to decide if the hand fit well with a 1D opening. 1D with AQxx is ok for competitive lead directing purpose. 1D---1H----??? i have np for 2H1D---1S----??? i have np for 2S.1D---1Nt---??? i have np with pass1D---limit-----i have np with 3Nt so ill open this 1 1D because i feel that 1D & continuation describe the hand better then a 1Nt bid. In a 12-14 nt i would never open this one 1nt.In a strong club (15+) i would open 1C. So its not because i find the hand too weak that im opening 1D. Finding the exact numerical strenght of the hand isnt what is important , finding the best way to show the value of the hand is what is important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 ask han Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 No WAY would I downgrade this. This hand is fine since anything partner provides will be useful. I'll go so far as to say I believe downgrading this hand to be a clear error at any scoring or vul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keylime Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 If I open 1m playing 15-17, I'll be happy to table this hand for partner's major. Playing 14-16 I likely open 1NT for consistency reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Let's see. Define 1N as 15-17 high card points balanced hand, then don't use that bid on a 15 hcp 3343 balanced hand. Is that the question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 ask han I decided not to post in this thread and still... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 For me this question cannot be answered in isolation. Yes it is a bad 15 perhaps a very bad 15. Two aces are the good features and everything else is bad. If you are very sound on your minimum balanced hands, say never opening 11s and passing some 12s then you are much better place to downgrade than if you frequently open 11s. This is because your 1NT rebids are fairly narrow in the first case but much wider (and even wider still if you start downgrading) in the later case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo81 Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Despite all the good things that can come from 1nt openings, i would definitely downgrade this hand against anyone I respected. If I open this hand 1NT it is because I am looking left and right, not at my cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 I was reading Meckstroth's book "Win the Bermuda Bowl with Me", and one of the things he says has served him well is, when faced with a decision as to whether to make a slight overbid or a slight underbid, he will always choose the overbid as it makes the rest of the auction easier - he's already done justice to his values. I'm bidding my 15-17 NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 For all the reasons given, I would open this 1 NT playing 12-14, 13-15, 14-16 or 15-17. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy_h Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 1NT always Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 This is a 14-count. Opening this hand 1NT because it's more fun to open 1NT than to open a minor is fair enough, but then our NT range should be disclosed as (14)15-17 or some such. 15-17 means per definition that we are equally likely to downgrade 15 and to upgrade 14. Whether that is a good strategy is, of course, a different matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wackojack Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 3+5+6+1 = 14. Its official from a mathematician. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 3+5+6+1 = 14. Its official from a mathematician. the question is, is 14 an element of [15;17] ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 I thought more like 4.2+4.2 (two aces)+1.8+1.8 (two queens)+0.8+0.8+0.8 (three jacks)-0.5 (4333 shape)=13.9 Or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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