Intermediate 2C/2D followups

[effervesce]

Due to most people on this forum preferring 2C as a 6+ club suit and 2D as a 6+ diamond suit in the context of a strong club system, with 1D as the catch-all, how do the followups change? Here's my first guess (any suggestions/what you play would be great!)

 

2C - 2D inv+

2H/2S 4 card suit, min

2NT clubs only, 2 outside stop (3D stop asking)

3C clubs only, 1 outside stop (3D stop asking)

3D = 4 diamonds, min

3H/3S 4 card suit, max

3NT = 4 diamonds, max

 

Or is it preferable, instead of showing strength to keep the bidding low to allow shape relaying, with 2H/2S as 4 card suits, allowing us to keep relays, and 2NT as the club-singlesuiter?

 

For the 2D opening, 6+ diamonds intermediate, just natural responses? The 6 diamonds+4 card majors are opened 1D?

 

The openings we're probably going to change to are

 

1C = 16+

1D = 11-15, 0+ diamonds

1H = 11-15, 5+

1S = 11-15, 5+

1NT = 11-13/14-16 1st-2nd/3rd-4th

2C = 11-15 6+

2D = 11-15 6+

2H/2S = wk twos

2NT = minors weak

[awm]

Here's what I usually play.

 

Over 2♦:

 

2M = natural, 4+ cards, forcing one round, at least invitational

.... 2♠ = natural 4-carder

.... 2NT = max 0-2 cards in partner's M

.... 3♣ = exactly 3 cards in partner's M

.... 3♦ = min 0-2 cards in partner's M

.... 3♥ = (over 2♠) natural GF

.... Raise = 4-card support minimum

.... Jump = 4-card support, splinter (or good diams if 4♦ rebid)

2NT = diam raise constructive or better (could be doubleton with a good hand)

.... 3♣ = minimum, no game opposite limit raise

.... 3♦ = accept limit raise, but no interest opposite constructive raise

.... 3M = stopper showing, forcing to 3NT or 4♦

.... 3N = to play, normally stops both majors (diam raise usually has ♣ length)

3♣ = natural GF 5+♣

3♦ = preemptive

3M = natural GF 6+

3NT = to play

 

Over 2♣ I've played a bunch of different things. Usually I use 2♦ as a relay (inv+) but I also like 2M natural (5+) and forcing, as 5-5 hands (for example) often do better by describing instead of relaying (especially if looking for the best game rather than trying seriously for slam).

[effervesce]

Thanks awm, that 2D structure looks pretty neat. So the 6D-4M hands are opened 2D instead of 1D in your system. Thus an opening of 1D denies such a hand- so the 1D opening guarantees one of the following

 

1) diamond-club two suiter

2) any three-suiter (without 5M)

3) 5C + 4M/ 5D + 4M

4) Balanced hand, the other NT range. (14-16 1st/2nd - possibly 11-13 3rd/4th or is that a bad idea?).

 

while all 6 carder minor openers are opened 2m.

 

So during the bidding, 1D - 1H - 2C shows a two-suited hand with clubs and diamonds? Can this be clubs and spades? Or with all 5 clubs 4 spades it goes 1D-1H-1S?

[awm]

Thanks awm, that 2D structure looks pretty neat. So the 6D-4M hands are opened 2D instead of 1D in your system. Thus an opening of 1D denies such a hand- so the 1D opening guarantees one of the following

 

1) diamond-club two suiter

2) any three-suiter (without 5M)

3) 5C + 4M/ 5D + 4M

4) Balanced hand, the other NT range. (14-16 1st/2nd - possibly 11-13 3rd/4th or is that a bad idea?).

 

while all 6 carder minor openers are opened 2m.

 

So during the bidding, 1D - 1H - 2C shows a two-suited hand with clubs and diamonds? Can this be clubs and spades? Or with all 5 clubs 4 spades it goes 1D-1H-1S?

I'll open 1NT with a 14-16 hcp (42)(52) pattern (no 5M). So 1♦ is one of (in order of frequency):

 

1) A balanced 11-13.

2) A three suiter, including 1345 type patterns, but no 5M.

3) 5-5 or more in the minors.

 

The third hand type is extremely rare; the breakdown is something like 63%-33%-4%.

 

Over 1♦-1♥, I rebid:

 

1) 1♠ with four spades and not four hearts, regardless of the rest of the shape.

2) 1NT if balanced without a 4M, although sometimes will raise hearts on three.

3) 1NT sometimes with 31(45) if the spades are strong and in the 11-13 range.

4) 2♣ with 2-2-4-5 or 3-1-4-5 if not suited to rebid 1NT (i.e. weak spades or 14-15 hcp)

5) 2♣ with 5-5 in the minors and no 3♥.

6) 2♦* with a good heart raise, typically 4♥ and a singleton and 11-13

7) 2♥ with a poor heart raise, usually 11-13 flat

8) 2♠ with a hand including 4♥ and a side void (2NT relays for void)

9) 2NT with 4♥, singleton spade, and 14-15 hcp

10) 3♣ with 6-5 or 5-6 in the minors, not a dog minimum

11) 3♦ with 4♥, singleton diamond, and 14-15 hcp

12) 3♥ with 4♥, singleton club, and 14-15 hcp

 

Over 1♠:

 

1) 1NT if balanced without 4♠, although sometimes will raise spades on three.

2) 1NT often with 14(35) or 1444 if in the 11-13 range.

3) 2♣ with 2-2-4-5 or 1-3-4-5.

4) 2♣ with 1435 or 1444 with 14-15 hcp (so 2♣ could have only 3♦ if extras)

5) 2♦ with precisely 1453 and 14-15 hcp

6) 2♥* with a good spade raise, typically 4♠, singleton, 11-13

7) 2♠ with a poor spade raise, usually 11-13 flat

8) 2NT with a hand including 4♠ and a side void (3♣ relays for void)

9) 3♣ with 6-5 or 5-6 in the minors, not a dog minimum

10) 3♦ with 4♠, singleton heart, 14-15 hcp

11) 3♥ with 4♠, singleton diamond, 14-15 hcp

12) 3♠ with 4♠, singleton club, 14-15 hcp

 

* Generally I distinguish four kinds of raise in these auctions. These are:

 

The bad raise is usually 11-13 balanced with three or four trumps. It can also be three-card support and a side singleton with 11-13 points. This raise bids 2M.

 

The good raise is often with 11-13 points, four trumps, and a side singleton. It can also be 14-15 with three trumps and a singleton, or a very prime balanced 13 with four trumps. This bids one below 2M. Partner can still bid 2M "to play" with a poor hand.

 

The void raise is four trumps and a side void (0445-type). This bids one above 2M. Usually partner will relay to ask the void.

 

The strong singleton raise is four trumps, a side singleton, and 14-15 high. This hand makes a jump above 2M+1, except that 1♦-1M-3♣ is always natural. We use high/middle/low shortage here for consistency with our relay methods in other auctions.

[Impact]

1D opening is always 2 or 3 -suited and denies a flat hand suitable (by whatever criteria the partnership adopts) for NT bidding

 

Accordingly - depending on competition rules - 2m opening is either 6+m content to treat as single-suited or MYXOMATOSIS in enlightened jurisdictions (10-15 6+m in suit opened OR weak in next suit up OR weak 2-suiter in remaining 2 suits) non-forcing in either event!

 

I prefer to relay with 1H over 1D but do NOT have a flat option, and the relay bid is the default option not only with strong 13+HCP hands but hands unsuitable for constructive or pre-emptive action:-

 

1S=all hands with 4S (then 1NT=Relay)

1NT= short S in perfect 3 suiter (2S=Relay including for 0-5-4-4)

2C= 4D & 5+C (2H=R)

2D= 4C & 5+D (2H=R)

2H= 5+D & 5+C with short S (2S=R)

2S= 5+D & 5+C with equal M (2NT=R)

2NT= 5+D & 5+C with short H (3H=R)

 

As you can see the same Hi Mid Lo applies to shortage and also in "natural" auctions per below.

 

Over 1D- 1S which is constructive but non-forcing and also denies a good 6+S suit:-

 

Pass= S tolerance with no interest

1NT= 3suited (this time including 1-3 45) shortS

2m= 6+m (occasionally 2C could be 1-2-5-5)

2H= max 0-5-4-4

2S= minimum raise, minimum dist eg flat min 4S & 5m (4-2 5m2om) or really bad 4--1-4-4 or average minus 3 card raise unsuitable for 2NT on strength

2NT= a) max 6+m headed by AKT+ & implies 4om

:D max 3-1 54

(responder continues a la paradox)

3m= 6+m max with <AKT & implies 4om

3H= 4S & 5C

3S= 4S & 5D

3NT= 4S & void H with 54minors

4C= 4S & 6+C with short H

4D= 4S & 6+D with short H

4H= 4S & 6+C with short D

4S= 4S & 6+D with short C

 

regards

[PrecisionL]

Due to most people on this forum preferring 2C as a 6+ club suit and 2D as a 6+ diamond suit in the context of a strong club system, with 1D as the catch-all, how do the followups change? Here's my first guess (any suggestions/what you play would be great!)

 

For the 2D opening, 6+ diamonds intermediate, just natural responses? The 6 diamonds+4 card majors are opened 1D?

 

Here is what I have been playing for over 2 years:

 

1♦ promises at least one 4-card major.

Thus, 2m = 6-cards (or very good 5 & four of the other minor)

 

Responses to 2♣ opener are transfers (Mid-Chart) & opener accepts with 2 or more cards, otherwise rebids 2NT (max) or 3m (min).

 

[2]m - 2NT = G.I. or better, opener rebids 3m to decline and responder bids again with G.F. and 5-5

 

Natural responses in M to opening 2♦ = G.I.

 

3M = G.F. & good suit.

 

Larry

[PassedOut]

Responses to 2♣ opener are transfers (Mid-Chart) & opener accepts with 2 or more cards, otherwise rebids 2NT (max) or 3m (min).

Larry, I'm wondering why this is mid-chart. Wouldn't this item in the GCC allow it?

 

RESPONSES AND REBIDS

 

7. ARTIFICIAL AND CONVENTIONAL CALLS after strong (15+ HCP), forcing opening bids and after opening bids of 2♣ or higher. (For this classification, by partnership agreement, weak two-bids must be within a range of 7 HCP and the suit must contain at least five cards – See #7 under DISALLOWED.)

[PrecisionL]

Responses to 2♣ opener are transfers (Mid-Chart) & opener accepts with 2 or more cards, otherwise rebids 2NT (max) or 3m (min).

Larry, I'm wondering why this is mid-chart. Wouldn't this item in the GCC allow it?

 

RESPONSES AND REBIDS

 

7. ARTIFICIAL AND CONVENTIONAL CALLS after strong (15+ HCP), forcing opening bids and after opening bids of 2♣ or higher. (For this classification, by partnership agreement, weak two-bids must be within a range of 7 HCP and the suit must contain at least five cards – See #7 under DISALLOWED.)

I have an e-mail from ACBL that disallows transfer responses to a natural Precision 2♣  opening. They claim the 2♣  bid has to be artificial and strong (if my memory is correct) to allow transfer responses in GCC Events.

 

Larry

[mikestar]

I have an e-mail from ACBL that disallows transfer responses to a natural Precision 2♣  opening. They claim the 2♣  bid has to be artificial and strong (if my memory is correct) to allow transfer responses in GCC Events.

 

Larry

Someone at ACBL is feeding you incorrect information. All responses to openings of 2♣ are legal even in the Limited Convention Chart with certain qualifications relating to weak twos, which a Precision 2♣ is not: it is an intermediate two. Perhaps someone at ACBL has received inquires about a Precision 2♣ with an unusually low minimum (say 8 HCP) and thinks that the lower limit makes it a weak two and a 15 point upper limit puts it in the 7 point range restriction for weak twos.

[keylime]

Why wouldn't it surprise me that the ACBL has it wrong when it comes to conventional use? :D

 

In all seriousness, Larry and I had a very lengthy discussion about this topic before the Nashville NABC before deciding to implement them. The wording of the restriction is not clear at all.

[PassedOut]

Why wouldn't it surprise me that the ACBL has it wrong when it comes to conventional use?  :D

 

In all seriousness, Larry and I had a very lengthy discussion about this topic before the Nashville NABC before deciding to implement them. The wording of the restriction is not clear at all.

Now I'm really puzzled. I reread #7 and can see no ambiguity at all.

 

Back when these convention charts came out, I was of two minds. On the one hand, the GCC seemed overly restrictive. On the other hand, it was great (I thought) that we could all see what the rules really were.

 

Now information keeps trickling in that the rules aren't really what the charts say, but are whatever some private emails from the ACBL to other players say they are. I find that very disconcerting.

 

In the distant past, I liked to respond to 1♦ with a 3-card heart suit (alerted) with certain hand types. Based on the plain wording of the GCC, I stopped doing that to my disadvantage (in my opinion, of course) in order to comply with the rules. In these discussion threads I learned that others had received private rulings that responding in a 3-card major (alerted) was actually allowed.

 

Now I see another situation in which a method that the GCC expressly allows (unless someone can point out an ambiguity that escapes me) is forbidden by the ACBL, and that significant ruling is provided to players by private email.

 

WTF!!

 

If transfers are disallowed after a Precision 2♣, why wouldn't a regular 2♦ response asking for a major be disallowed also?

 

Why would a transfer bid be allowed by advancer after an overcall, but not after a Precision 2♣? Are players not able to use the same generic defense against transfers that they use in other situations?

 

Sorry to go off like this, but this private email thing contradicting the published rules we play by really gets on my nerves.

[rbforster]

If transfers are disallowed after a Precision 2♣, why wouldn't a regular 2♦ response asking for a major be disallowed also?

It's annoying that most people you ask haven't got a clue as to what's legal and what's not GCC. Especially when the people you ask are the official ACBL representatives who sometimes (often?) can't seem to read the letter of the law sitting in front of them and mistakenly tell you something's illegal when it clearly isn't. This seems to have happened here - all responses to a precision 2♣ are allowed GCC under the rule #7 above (transfer advances get their own rule permitting them). If you want to get technical, under rule #7 you can use conventional responses over an opening bid of 2♣ (meaning anything you are allowed GCC) as long as

 

1) the bid isn't "weak," OR

2) if weak, the bid promises a 5+ suit and a 7 point range or less (e.g. 4-10 points)

 

Of course "weak" isn't defined anywhere, but presumably a precision 10-15 isn't. If you want to get into ambiguities, you might wonder if "weak" means

 

A) the bid includes a range of values, all of which are "weak" (e.g. 0-6), vs

B) the bid includes a range of values, at least some of which are "weak" (e.g. 0-20)

 

I would argue that under a normal interpretation of the definition of "weak" a weak bid is one that is always weak (A above), not a bid that might be weak (B above). Of course there's no official definition of weak vs not weak, but it's probably clear that a typical 12 point hand is not "weak" since most people open those at the one level. You could probably make an argument that since an average hand is 10 points, 10 or more points isn't weak. Don't expect everyone to agree with that 10+ argument though, since weak in a mathematical sense isn't the same as weak in a bridge-bidding sense and it's not clear which the authors of the GCC meant. This would mean you could play some increasingly weird things like:

 

1) 2♣ 5+ clubs, 8-15 points (should be ok)

2) 2♣ 4+ clubs, 5-12 points (probably ok)

3) 2♣ 3+ clubs, 0-7 points or exactly 37 points (don't expect much sympathy here)

 

all GCC and still use conventional follow-ups since none would count as "weak" (under my particular interpretation of the GCC). Case #3 above points to the issue of whether something is weak if it's weak X% of the time, and having X=100% might be silly and now you have to argue about whether X=95% or X=75% or what.

[PassedOut]

This seems to have happened here - all responses to a precision 2♣ are allowed GCC under the rule #7 above (transfer advances get their own rule permitting them).

I know that transfer advances are permitted under a totally separate rule (Competitive rule #5), but I brought that up because it seems to undercut any conceivable justification some ACBL official might put forward for disallowing transfers over a Precision 2♣.

 

This type of thing inclines me to start playing transfer responses over 2♣ and 2♦ no matter what I've read here about private emails -- and let the chips fall where they may.

[cwiggins]

I have a couple of questions.

 

1) Do you open some, none, or all 6m-5M hands with 2m?

 

2) After 1♦-2♥, what do you think about using 2♦ to be a 3-card raise of any strength and 2♥ to be a 4-card minimum raise?

 

After thinking maybe 30 seconds, after 1♦-2♥-2♦ perhaps something like:

... 2♥ = signoff

... 2♠ = agreeing hearts and relaying for strength and distribution. INV+

... 2NT = INV+ but only 4 hearts. Opener bids 3m with 5+ and a minimum or above with a maximum

... 3♣ = pass or correct

... 3♦ = ?

... 3♥ = signoff

... 3♠, 4♣, 4♦ = void splinters, slammish

... 3NT = signoff

... 4♥ = signoff

 

Some of these auctions would disclose little to the defenders. For example: 1♦-1♥; 2♦-4♥

[awm]

I open virtually no 5M-6m hands with 2m. However I'm sure you could get me to make an exception for something like 65432 A2 - AKQT98 (I'm not Steve Robinson). The point is that I have no way to show a 5M after opening 2m so I'll only do it if my 5M "looks like four." I make use of the free bid of 2N in auctions like 1M-1N-2N to distinguish 5-6 hands from 6-5 hands (2N has no natural meaning in this auction in a strong club system).

 

I have considered, and even tried playing the "3-card vs. 4-card" distinction. I have found this to be markedly inferior to playing "good vs. bad" raise distinction. The good/bad distinction helps dramatically in staying low when you have no game. There are many hands that would make a game try in standard methods which pass the "bad raise" (for example any balanced 10-count). This also makes it much more dangerous for opponents to balance, since opener is so tightly limited by the choice of "bad raise" that responder can pass with a good hand and also has a good handle on the total assets. The 3-card/4-card distinction in contrast helps the opponents a lot in their balancing decisions (this is the same reason a lot of good players dislike "2-way" drury).

[the hog]

Opeining 2m with a side 4 card Major is really bad. The value of these bids is precisely the fact that there is NO Major to investigate.

Over 2C we played:

2D gfr

2H/S 5+ about 7-10

2NT puppet to 3C.

Now: pass = weak Cs, 3D = gf Ds and 5M,

3H = invit 5/5 Ms, 3S = Gf 5/5 Ms, 3NT = 13-14 C raise, 4+C

3C = 10-12 C raise

3D = gf Ds

3H/S = invit, very good 6 card suit.

3NT = to play, flat, o/s stoppers

[PrecisionL]

Why wouldn't it surprise me that the ACBL has it wrong when it comes to conventional use?  B)

 

In all seriousness, Larry and I had a very lengthy discussion about this topic before the Nashville NABC before deciding to implement them. The wording of the restriction is not clear at all.

Now I'm really puzzled. I reread #7 and can see no ambiguity at all.

 

Back when these convention charts came out, I was of two minds. On the one hand, the GCC seemed overly restrictive. On the other hand, it was great (I thought) that we could all see what the rules really were.

 

Now information keeps trickling in that the rules aren't really what the charts say, but are whatever some private emails from the ACBL to other players say they are. I find that very disconcerting.

 

[snip]

 

Now I see another situation in which a method that the GCC expressly allows (unless someone can point out an ambiguity that escapes me) is forbidden by the ACBL, and that significant ruling is provided to players by private email.

 

[snip]

 

If transfers are disallowed after a Precision 2♣, why wouldn't a regular 2♦ response asking for a major be disallowed also?

 

Why would a transfer bid be allowed by advancer after an overcall, but not after a Precision 2♣? Are players not able to use the same generic defense against transfers that they use in other situations?

 

Sorry to go off like this, but this private email thing contradicting the published rules we play by really gets on my nerves.

Hmm, I think C. C. Wei obtained 2D as Stayman over 2C specifically approved.

 

Here is the e-mail response from ACBL before Nashville last year:

 

07/05/2006 09:42 MST To rulings@acbl.org

 

Subject: Transfer responses [to Precision 2C Opening] in GCC?

 

Dear Larry,

 

According to the ACBL General Convention Chart, this agreement would not be allowed. All conventional responses to artificial opening bids are allowed, but, if 2C is natural, then, transfer responses are not allowed.

 

If you were playing in a game in which the ACBL MidChart was permitted, which would be the case if you were playing in a Flight A event or the top bracket of a KO where the minimum average holding of the lowest team in the bracket was 1000 points, this agreement would be permitted.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

Mike Flader

 

[snip - my Q]

[effervesce]

Okay, here are the 1D notes I've come up with for our own system, based on Adam's notes (they're a tad simpler though) adjusted for our 1NT range openings in the different seats (11-13 1st/2nd, 14-16 3rd/4th) - please hit me on the head if I've made any obvious omission

 

1D - 1H

1S = unbalanced, may have longer minor

1NT = 14-15, bal/semibal <4 hearts for 1st/2nd 1D opener, 11-13 3rd/4th

2C = 5+/4+ minors either way

2D = good heart raise (typically 14-15 bal/semibal 1st/2nd, 14-15 semibal/11-13 unbal 3rd/4th)

2H = poor heart raise (typically 11-13 unbal 1st/2nd, 11-13 bal/semibal 3rd/4th)

2S = splinter, max

2NT = club splinter, max

3C = not a dog minimum, 6-5/5-6 minors

3D = diamond splinter

3H = forcing to game unless 1H response was sub-minimum

 

1D-1S

1NT = 14-15 bal/semibal, <4 spades

2C = 5+/4+ minors either way or 1435 or 3 suited short spades

2D = 5 diamonds, 4 hearts

2H = good spade raise (typically 14-15 balanced/semibalanced 1st/2nd, 11-13 unbal or 14-15 semibal 3rd/4th)

2S = poor spade raise (typically 11-13, unbalanced 1st/2nd, 11-13 bal/semibal 3rd/4th)

2NT = club splinter, max

3C = 6-5/5-6 minors, not a dog minimum

3D = diamond splinter

3H = heart splinter

3S = forcing to game unless responder has sub-minimum