noobish concerns

[gwnn]

It seems to be something interesting going on here.

 

Overcalls on the 2 level used to show solid opening hands with a good suit. Nowadays I see many overcalls on opening hands with so-so suits ("we might miss game, u just gotta get in" - AJx KQ8xx QJx xx is probably not a clear pass over 1♠) and also non-clear opening hands with good suits (xx xx AQT9x Axxx is probably usually a 2♦ call over 1♥). However, the tendency to double and bid a suit on good hands has also become obsolete somewhat. So hands like x KQJxxx AKx Qxx are not quite worth a double and bid hearts over 1♠ and neither is x Axx KJx AKJTxx worth x of 1♥ and then diamonds. So basically the 2 level overcalls have become pretty wide ranging. What does responder do? He usually looks at his balanced 8 count with no real fit (Hx or xx) and says reluctantly, ok, partner usually has junk-ish hands for his overcall, so let's not punish him, let's just pass. However, if he does this routinely, opps are pretty unlikely to reopen (they usually have length in our suit) and if partner has the nuts, we've just lost a game (It's true that this is an unlikely case, but the point is, the majority of the times partner is strong we will have missed game and this part of the question only regards the strong hands and the alternatives). I'm not suggesting I have a better alternative. I'm just wondering, does intervening lightly for preemption/fighting for partscore/looking for a game on power coupled with intervening ultrasoundly in order to get your suit in early and not have to guess in auctions like 1♥-x-3♥-p;p-? really work? I am not suggesting I have a better alternative. I'd just basically like to understand more of these 2 level overcalls and why the winning style seems to be one that I have (mis)described above.

[awm]

I don't see a lot of good players overcalling at the two-level on opening hands with so-so suits.

 

In my experience, a two-level overcall shows either:

 

(1) A real moose of a hand (like 15+ hcp at minimum)

(2) A weaker hand (say 11-14) with a very good suit, usually 6+ cards.

(3) On rare occasion an even weaker hand with an amazing suit, especially at vulnerable when preempting at the three-level is undesirable.

 

One solution I've seen to the "wide range" problem is to let responder's 2NT advance be fairly wide ranging as well and virtually a one-round force, on the reasoning that all of overcaller's "bad" hands have a 6-card suit in which case three of that suit is likely to be (at least!) as playable a partial as 2NT.

[paulg]

I don't see a lot of good players overcalling at the two-level on opening hands with so-so suits.

 

I think the times they are a-changin' for a while now ...

 

 

White all, you hold:

S:A9X

H:JT

D:Q8X

C:KQT86

 

RHO opens 1D(Precision but promises 3+). Do you overcall 2C or pass?

 

I would overcall 2C.

 

For most of my bridge career I passed with hands like this one (as would many strong players), but then I noticed that the players who win the most all tend to bid with these hands.

 

As far as I can tell they are right :)

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[barmar]

Fred's example has two things going for it:

 

1. The 1♦ opening was Precision, so it's limited to 15 HCP. So you have a better chance of finding values in your partner's hand (although it could also just as easily be in LHO's hand).

 

2. (1♦)-2♣ has a nice preemptive effect, taking away the entire 1 level from the opponents. LHO needs a better hand to introduce a new suit now.

 

I'll find any reasonable excuse to bid 2♣ over 1♦ for the latter reason, much as I'm always happier being able to preempt in ♠ than ♥.

[dcvetkov]

I can agree with the original poster. I am not sure of a really good players, but I have seen many times hair raising overcall vulnerable on crappy suits. Yes, usually it works somehow, and we are not punished, or we have a fit or whatever, but we get away with it most of the time. And I have seen this done by star players also.

 

Maybe if we start pulling the old penalty dbl card, and partners reopen for takout more frequently, they will change after few telephone numbers penalties. But there is a fine line between MP and IMP, IMO, sometimess you just can not afford to pass at MP.

 

Remember South Africa - Italy in Shangai? Some of the swings for SA, was that they fail to pay full respect and bow to Italians and started doubling their shaky partials. Of course this does not prove anything, but I still remember a few hands.

[pclayton]

Yep we are witnessing a paradigm shift.

 

Over the next year I will be shorting overcalls and going long on penalty doubles.

[awm]

It's funny because the trend I've noticed is two-level overcalls becoming super-sound (except maybe 1♦-2♣ as Fred mentions) and often six card suits... whereas at the same time double seems to be becoming something of a "garbage bin" for 5332 hands (even ones that don't have doubleton in opener's suit!) that are "too weak" to overcall the five-bagger at the two-level.

 

Then again, maybe that's just the trend on the forums.