ACBL Electronics ban

[jdonn]

So the outcry over stealing an entire class of peoples' way of life

No hyperbole?

I'll grant you it's temporary not permanent. Otherwise, I think it's the view of that outlook as hyperbole that is the problem...

[h2osmom]

I wonder what the outcry actually WOULD be if day 2 and beyond of NABC+ events had a $10 surcharge for increased security. I don't imagine it would be much of a problem at all.

[JanM]

So the outcry over stealing an entire class of peoples' way of life doesn't matter when compared to an outcry over a generally affluent class of people paying $10 extra to play (to support a FAR more effective cheating deterrant) because..... the outcry is not as big? Or because the people in charge are only listening to certain 'outcriers'?

I'm confused. I wasn't saying anything about any outcry about the electronics ban. I have no idea whether the ACBL Board will be influenced by the comments here to change the electronics ban. I was responding to the suggestion that screens should be used from the second day of NABC events on. And if you really think that the additional cost of screens would be $10 per day, you are wrong - when I said double or triple the entry fee I based that on a fair amount of experience with the cost of screens. The entry fee for an NABC event is $36 per person per day, not $5 or $10.

I also have a little history to base my comment on - when screens were first introduced, the entry fee for the Vanderbilt & Spingold was raised from the Round of 16 on (that being when screens were used) and there was sufficient complaint that the entry fee is now the same on all days of those events.

The screens we now have are a result of many years of experimentation. In the beginning (am I quoting from somewhere?), the "screen" part was a curtain - that just didn't work well. The current screens are well-designed, both for use and for setting up, taking down and shipping. But they're not something inexperienced people can set up or take down. And they're not cheap.

[matmat]

This policy will be strictly enforced. The first violation carries a bridge penalty, the second results in expulsion from the event for the pair or team. "

ok. how?

 

are they going to search my pockets?

 

the moment anyone tries that i'm calling the cops and a lawyer.

[mike777]

This policy will be strictly enforced. The first violation carries a bridge penalty, the second results in expulsion from the event for the pair or team. "

ok. how?

 

are they going to search my pockets?

 

the moment anyone tries that i'm calling the cops and a lawyer.

Welcome to America :)

 

ACBL try and put in place a policy be prepared for cops and lawyers. :)

1) Be an ACBL policy maker

2) You darn well be ready for the cops and lawyers to be speed dialed on you. :)

 

Several posters have said they will speed dial the cops and their lawyers :)

[jdonn]

This policy will be strictly enforced. The first violation carries a bridge penalty, the second results in expulsion from the event for the pair or team. "

ok. how?

 

are they going to search my pockets?

 

the moment anyone tries that i'm calling the cops and a lawyer.

It seems like only if they catch someone being careless, like taking a phone out of their pocket as they leave the playing area.

[CSGibson]

This policy will be strictly enforced. The first violation carries a bridge penalty, the second results in expulsion from the event for the pair or team. "

ok. how?

 

are they going to search my pockets?

 

the moment anyone tries that i'm calling the cops and a lawyer.

It seems like only if they catch someone being careless, like taking a phone out of their pocket as they leave the playing area.

They'll definitely know you have a phone if you speed dial a lawyer in front of them.

[jillybean]

This policy will be strictly enforced. The first violation carries a bridge penalty, the second results in expulsion from the event for the pair or team. "

ok. how?

 

are they going to search my pockets?

 

the moment anyone tries that i'm calling the cops and a lawyer.

It seems like only if they catch someone being careless, like taking a phone out of their pocket as they leave the playing area.

And those who forget to turn their &^&^ phone off during the game.

I wish they'd frisk the players at the 299ers too :)

[matmat]

It seems like only if they catch someone being careless, like taking a phone out of their pocket as they leave the playing area.

seems like an awfully good way to use (the already thin) human resources. Surely watching play at tables might actually have more of an effect at curbing cheating than seeing who starts looking for a phone at the bottom of their purse or some pocket.

[matmat]

And those who forget to turn their &^&^ phone off during the game.

I wish they'd frisk the players at the 299ers too :)

having the phone ring is another matter entirely. mind you, i just talked with someone who played a local sectional event recently (one of the last few days) and said that a player's phone went off and the director, as usual, did nothing.

 

what's the point of making rules if they're either unenforcible or not going to be enforced?

[jchiu]

This policy will be strictly enforced. The first violation carries a bridge penalty, the second results in expulsion from the event for the pair or team. "

ok. how?

 

are they going to search my pockets?

 

the moment anyone tries that i'm calling the cops and a lawyer.

It seems like only if they catch someone being careless, like taking a phone out of their pocket as they leave the playing area.

They'll definitely know you have a phone if you speed dial a lawyer in front of them.

How would one make that inference?

[mike777]

PLease keep in mind.....when people call the police or sue you lose, even if you win, that means......it costs you money and time....

1) Lots of your money

2) lots of your time.

3) Yes you may win at trial but in USA you lose.....you lose thousands and thousands of bucks......in court costs.....and thousands of hours of your life....

4) Welcome to ACBL......please join.....and set policy......

5) Please see this policy ...please see how many forum members say....1) call police 2) call lawyer on speed dial......

[mike777]

I grant it may only take one or two or 4 or 6 years of your life to be involved with police or lawsuits but still please join this policy .....

 

Join ACBL and set some policy that you may be sued on.....

[TimG]

This policy will be strictly enforced. The first violation carries a bridge penalty, the second results in expulsion from the event for the pair or team. "

ok. how?

 

are they going to search my pockets?

 

the moment anyone tries that i'm calling the cops and a lawyer.

Going to find a pay phone for that?

[TimG]

PLease keep in mind.....when people call the police or sue you lose, even if you win, that means......it costs you money and time....

1) Lots of your money

2) lots of your time.

3) Yes you may win at trial but in USA you lose.....you lose thousands and thousands of bucks......in court costs.....and thousands of hours of your life....

4) Welcome to ACBL......please join.....and set policy......

It is against ACBL regulation to sue ACBL before going through the ACBL disciplinary procedures.

[JanM]

This policy will be strictly enforced. The first violation carries a bridge penalty, the second results in expulsion from the event for the pair or team. "

ok. how?

 

are they going to search my pockets?

 

the moment anyone tries that i'm calling the cops and a lawyer.

There are devices that can sense a cell phone in a fairly large area. I'm not sure whether these work if the phone is turned off, but I know I've seen an ad for one that allegedly can:

http://www.cellbusters.com/product_info.php?products_id=28

http://www.evitechnology.com/c-d_intro.htm

[cherdano]

This policy will be strictly enforced. The first violation carries a bridge penalty, the second results in expulsion from the event for the pair or team. "

ok. how?

 

are they going to search my pockets?

 

the moment anyone tries that i'm calling the cops and a lawyer.

There are devices that can sense a cell phone in a fairly large area. I'm not sure whether these work if the phone is turned off, but I know I've seen an ad for one that allegedly can:

http://www.cellbusters.com/product_info.php?products_id=28

http://www.evitechnology.com/c-d_intro.htm

Hmm, is this a more cost efficient way to prevent cheating compared to using screens more often?

[JanM]

Hmm, is this a more cost efficient way to prevent cheating compared to using screens more often?

I haven't priced these recently, but when I did look they cost something like $700. I confess I don't know the cost of purchasing a table with screen, but I suspect it's in the same price range, and you need one for each table in play.

 

Which isn't to say that using screens as early as possible in major events wouldn't be a very good thing. It would. USBF uses screens throughout all of our events. And bans electronic devices. And wands some of the time. But our entry fees are significantly higher than ACBL's.

[mycroft]

"As a condition of entering this event, you agree to abide by the regulations in place. You also agree that the ACBL may take reasonable steps, including a search of your clothes and possessions, to ensure that you are following the regulations."

 

Your choice. Submit to the search, or don't buy the entry. You have no right to be in the private confines of the ACBL's event, except for what the ACBL chooses to allow you.

 

Works the same as the searches you sign up for going into a rock concert, Disneyland, or most Rocky Horror presentations. It's a condition of entry. Don't like it? Don't go.

[hrothgar]

Hmm, is this a more cost efficient way to prevent cheating compared to using screens more often?

I haven't priced these recently, but when I did look they cost something like $700. I confess I don't know the cost of purchasing a table with screen, but I suspect it's in the same price range, and you need one for each table in play.

 

Which isn't to say that using screens as early as possible in major events wouldn't be a very good thing. It would. USBF uses screens throughout all of our events. And bans electronic devices. And wands some of the time. But our entry fees are significantly higher than ACBL's.

A few observations

 

1. The devices that you are pointing at will (probably) be able to detect a cell phone that has been turned off. However, it won't do anything to detect a cell phone that has its battery pack removed. Moreover, said battery less phone can be made operational in a matter of seconds in the cushy confines of the bathroom.

 

2. Let's assume for the moment that the scanners actually worked... I wouldn't say that it is trivial to custom build a system to beat the scanner. However, I wouldn't call it all that challenging either. All that you're going to do is to create an arms race.

 

3. My worry through this process is that the ACBL / WBF / whomever is rushing to implement expensive and inconvenient cosmetic changes that won't have any actual impact on security. I would much rather see the powers that be invest a small amount of resources to study the problem rather than buying cell phne scanners at $700 a pop... Hell, you could probably generate a lot of useful information just by creating an online forum in which various folks could discuss/debate the relavent issues. With luck, you'll get some good suggestions. Worst case, you burned a couple hundred dollars and a few hours setting the system up.

 

4. For what its worth, I still think that running major events using computers is inevitable.

 

* You don't need to invest in dealing maching, screens, what have you.

* Everyone plays the boards at the same time

* You can segregate players by direction (all the North's in one room)

* You can separate players by enough distance that electronic signalling is much easier to detect

* You don't need to scrounge viewgraph operators

* You automatically get perfect records of bidding and play which can be used for forensic analysis

* You can time every bid and play. Its easy to judge whether there was a break in tempo. You can intelligently assign delay of game penalties

 

This is going to happen. You might as well bite the bullet and prepare for the transition rather than trying to apply patch after patch try to compensate for a weak foundation.

[jdonn]

Hmm, is this a more cost efficient way to prevent cheating compared to using screens more often?

I haven't priced these recently, but when I did look they cost something like $700. I confess I don't know the cost of purchasing a table with screen, but I suspect it's in the same price range, and you need one for each table in play.

 

Which isn't to say that using screens as early as possible in major events wouldn't be a very good thing. It would. USBF uses screens throughout all of our events. And bans electronic devices. And wands some of the time. But our entry fees are significantly higher than ACBL's.

Was there a public outcry over these much higher USBF rates? Somehow that organization seems to have survived...

 

This is like if an airport performed a pat down on every traveler but left the back door wide open. Bridge will look back on this in the years down the road and be laughing at us.

 

Btw random other question. Suppose they do have a device that says alert alert there is a cell phone in the room. Then what, do they make all put one person leave the room one by one till they figure out who? Do they say please tell us who has a cell phone or no one can leave? Or do they actually somehow transmit an exact location back to some station?

 

I swear I get closer and closer to quitting the acbl every year.... I can easily get my fix on BBO.

[matmat]

There are devices that can sense a cell phone in a fairly large area. I'm not sure whether these work if the phone is turned off, but I know I've seen an ad for one that allegedly can:

http://www.cellbusters.com/product_info.php?products_id=28

http://www.evitechnology.com/c-d_intro.htm

quick read reveals that the sensors detect cell phones that have been turned on. the range of one of the sensors is 90 feet (one of the companies doesn't list the range). It requires additional hardware, cabling and software.

 

what is the regulation size of a screen, as compared to the size of a table? are there any requirements regarding the material, other than it be opaque?

[matmat]

"As a condition of entering this event, you agree to abide by the regulations in place. You also agree that the ACBL may take reasonable steps, including a search of your clothes and possessions, to ensure that you are following the regulations."

 

Your choice. Submit to the search, or don't buy the entry. You have no right to be in the private confines of the ACBL's event, except for what the ACBL chooses to allow you.

 

Works the same as the searches you sign up for going into a rock concert, Disneyland, or most Rocky Horror presentations. It's a condition of entry. Don't like it? Don't go.

the other searches you list are for personal and public safety. The consequences of someone bringing in a knife or a glass bottle filled with alcohol can be much more severe than someone bringing in a cell phone. If the venue decided to push us through a metal detector for that reason (and honestly for that reason) then i'd understand. but to accuse the general populace of wanting to cheat and then to think about trying to search them for cell phones is preposterous.

[TimG]

4. For what its worth, I still think that running major events using computers is inevitable.

 

* You don't need to invest in dealing maching, screens, what have you.

But, you need to invest in computers.

[Vilgan]

4.  For what its worth, I still think that running major events using computers is inevitable.

 

* You don't need to invest in dealing maching, screens, what have you. 

* Everyone plays the boards at the same time

* You can segregate players by direction (all the North's in one room)

* You can separate players by enough distance that electronic signalling is much easier to detect

* You don't need to scrounge viewgraph operators

* You automatically get perfect records of bidding and play which can be used for forensic analysis

* You can time every bid and play.  Its easy to judge whether there was a break in tempo.  You can intelligently assign delay of game penalties

 

This is going to happen. You might as well bite the bullet and prepare for the transition rather than trying to apply patch after patch try to compensate for a weak foundation.

Just because something is slightly more modern does not make it better or even inevitable. Just because Amazon's Kindle now exists does not mean that suddenly books will become obsolete. Computers add convenience to many things, but not without cost.

 

The reduced quality of "experience" if major events were moved to computers would be more than I would be willing to sacrifice, and I don't think I am in the minority. Hell, I'm a network engineer/CS major and am like 40+ years younger than the average bridge player.

 

Bridge via computer absolutely has its advantages. Heck I practice on BBO reasonably often. Computers also enhance the bridge experience, with things like ACBLScore, BridgeMate (if the ACBL ever gets them), etc. However, for the actual play itself... I don't see computer play becoming standard and would be extremely bummed if it did.