ACBL Electronics ban

[TimG]

I'm just telling you the impression I am getting from reading the various threads. I was hoping to be able to come back and tone it down before anyone had quoted my post. "Brat" was probably too strong, but I still don't have much sympathy for most of the complaints.

[cherdano]

The reasons against have mostly been along the lines of putting personal convenience above the integrity of the event.

I don't think a cell phone ban has much to do with integrity of the first day of LMP or the first round of one of the big team knockouts. I doubt the TD will follow any of the participants of the LMP when they use a 5 minute break between rounds to go for a smoke outside the hotel.

[TimG]

I don't think a cell phone ban has much to do with integrity of the first day of LMP or the first round of one of the big team knockouts.

If I was going to cheat in one of the big KOs, I'd do it in the early rounds -- otherwise I'd be out of the event before I got a chance.

[cherdano]

I don't think a cell phone ban has much to do with integrity of the first day of LMP or the first round of one of the big team knockouts.

If I was going to cheat in one of the big KOs, I'd do it in the early rounds -- otherwise I'd be out of the event before I got a chance.

So what? The cell phone ban will do exactly nothing to stop you from doing so. The only thing it achieves is to make it a little more inconvenient to cheat.

[TimG]

I don't think a cell phone ban has much to do with integrity of the first day of LMP or the first round of one of the big team knockouts.

If I was going to cheat in one of the big KOs, I'd do it in the early rounds -- otherwise I'd be out of the event before I got a chance.

So what? The cell phone ban will do exactly nothing to stop you from doing so. The only thing it achieves is to make it a little more inconvenient to cheat.

I think those opposing the cell phone ban would be better served by focusing on the effects on the game rather than the personal convenience. Productive discussion would center on how conditions could be changed to make cheating more difficult and how the cell phone ban does not address the problem in a significant way.

 

Players who oppose the ban ought to be saying: I agree that cheating is an important issue and that steps should be taken to prevent cheating, but I don't think this ban addresses the real issue...here is what the ACBL could do if they were truly serious about preventing cheating and removing the appearance of impropriety.

 

Instead, the focus has been: this rule is ridiculous, I want to be able to call my friends, be reached by family/work, etc., with little or no mention of the things ACBL should have done (and still could do) to address the issue.

[matmat]

I think those opposing the cell phone ban would be better served by focusing on the effects on the game rather than the personal convenience. Productive discussion would center on how conditions could be changed to make cheating more difficult and how the cell phone ban does not address the problem in a significant way.

 

Players who oppose the ban ought to be saying: I agree that cheating is an important issue and that steps should be taken to prevent cheating, but I don't think this ban addresses the real issue...here is what the ACBL could do if they were truly serious about preventing cheating and removing the appearance of impropriety.

 

Instead, the focus has been: this rule is ridiculous, I want to be able to call my friends, be reached by family/work, etc., with little or no mention of the things ACBL should have done (and still could do) to address the issue.

Convenience is one thing, but there are a couple more things that bother me here. For one, it takes away from my enjoyment of the whole trip; not necessarily the bridge event itself, but certainly the whole package. I am obviously not a pro (probably a few lifetimes of getting better at the game removed from being one), and if/when i go to play it is for fun, to enjoy the atmosphere and to hang out with people I know, bridge or otherwise. Cell phones going off during a session would certainly piss me off, especially if I thought that the rings were conveying any sort of message, but you know what? I am going to give my opponent the benefit of the doubt on this one... they're certainly rude to leave the phone on, but to accuse them of cheating solely on the basis of the phone going off? which brings me to my next point... does anyone feel like this is the acbl saying to the membership: "we can't trust you not to cheat, and as a consequence you have to forfeit your right to carry electronic devices." To me this is perilously close to accusing the mebership at large of mass cheating.

[mike777]

I think this raises the same points David C makes and they are worth discussing.

 

If convenience is most important then the ban will only last a day.

 

As the other thread points out, not only do people not want to turn "off" their phones, some seem to keep them on at the table. :)

 

Wolff argues for the opposite. "We must maintain ceaseless vigilance against the small minority of players for whom no price is too high in the search of success. THE HONOR OF BRIDGE MUST BE PRESERVED AT ANY COST!" (HIS ITALICS)

 

 

"Cheating comes our way at all levels of the game, in varying degrees and in many venues."

 

 

 

"The classified records of the ACBL are filled with documented information and lengthy dossiers on some of the perpetrators of bridge crimes..."

 

He goes on at length about the lack of security for online ACBL games.

[matmat]

"The classified records of the ACBL are filled with documented information and lengthy dossiers on some of the perpetrators of bridge crimes..."

ok.

so why are these records classified? surely this is neither to protect the innocent nor for reasons of national security...

[mike777]

"The classified records of the ACBL are filled with documented information and lengthy dossiers on some of the perpetrators of bridge crimes..."

ok.

so why are these records classified? surely this is neither to protect the innocent nor for reasons of national security...

Good question to call up Memphis and let us know. My guess and it is only a guess is they are sick and tired of lawsuits, endless lawsuits over this whole issue.

 

Even the China sign incident got lawyers and lawyers involved...that costs thousands if not the threat of millions...

 

Would not be shocked if there is a suit over this cell phone ban....that costs thousands or more to defend.

[brianshark]

I imagine that they are kept classified until such a time as there is enough evidence to charge someone with cheating. Anything less than sufficient proof is not enough be sure the subjects are guilty, but is certainly enough for rumours and finger pointing to suin the reputation of anyone who may have an odd entry in these classified files, guilty or not.

[matmat]

I imagine that they are kept classified until such a time as there is enough evidence to charge someone with cheating. Anything less than sufficient proof is not enough be sure the subjects are guilty, but is certainly enough for rumours and finger pointing to suin the reputation of anyone who may have an odd entry in these classified files, guilty or not.

so you're saying there isn't enough evidence to punish those suspected of cheating, but there is sufficient evidence to punish everyone else for the cheating of the few?

[mike777]

I imagine that they are kept classified until such a time as there is enough evidence to charge someone with cheating. Anything less than sufficient proof is not enough be sure the subjects are guilty, but is certainly enough for rumours and finger pointing to suin the reputation of anyone who may have an odd entry in these classified files, guilty or not.

so you're saying there isn't enough evidence to punish those suspected of cheating, but there is sufficient evidence to punish everyone else for the cheating of the few?

Yes, also Wolff does name names, lots of names in his book. Others call it sour grapes but he does list alot of incidents and uses names.

 

But yes, as is often the case I bet there is a perception of cheating but insufficient evidence to risk a lawsuit.

 

If convenience and lack of 100% cheating proof is the rule of thumb hopefully we can have sectionals and regionals online soon.

At least we will not need to ban cellphones.

[jkdood]

This is a very interesting and enlightening thread. The term that resonated most for me, was "selective" - as in biased selective enforcement, which we have seen far too often in bridge matters.

 

In this case however I am hopeful and optimistic that the ban and theoretical strict punishment of it, IF enforced, will be ONLY "selectively applied" to those in late stages of top events that are under (documented confidential, priviliged?) suspicion.

 

I would assume that it is suspected that some kibitzers or players in late rounds of top events have gone to the restroom, and perhaps sent or otherwise communicated by cellphone or personal electronic device, to their advantage. ...perhaps called someone watching VuGraf on BBO even!

 

The new rules could be a useful tool for the ACBL to confront those suspected and if they find a banned device in their posession, use the rule as a foolproof way to prove a violation, and take appropriate action.

 

I say "could be" and dearly hope that is the ACBL's objective, hidden or otherwise. I have no inside information, and even would appreciate private email about what the SF Women's rumor was in detail, as I would love to know :)

[finally17]

mike777, you seem very taken by this book of wolff's. i don't read the forums that carefully, skimming and skipping threads entirely, and i must have seen you reference it half a dozen times in the last month or so.

[barmar]

Better still, a friend of mine who suffers from Parkinson just got a brain implant so that he can jam his own motor neurons with a remote control.

"Sorry, sir, but you're going to have to leave your brain in your hotel room, it violates our electronics prohibition."

 

Then again, I think I've had (or been) some partners who seemed to do that.

[TimG]

Better still, a friend of mine who suffers from Parkinson just got a brain implant so that he can jam his own motor neurons with a remote control.

The ban specifically excludes medical devices.

[uday]

About Wolff: Fred says the Wolff book is a good read.

 

So what did you do in the years before mobile phones?

Thye have to be switched off in Oz events or else you are liable to a 5VP fine.

 

Before phones, we carried beepers (those only helped if systems went down, not if grandpa went down, but still..). We made sure that people know how to have us paged over the PA. That worked, mostly.

 

 

But we aren't in those days now. We have antibiotics. We have cellphones (ducks! but really, life is better with them for some of us, even tho Roland would like to throw them out the window). Can't turn back the clock.

[Walddk]

Can't turn back the clock.

We can, and we do, every year in September (except for Oz and NZ where they are having fun with turning it forward) :)

 

As it is now, I can't find my keys, pipe, tobacco, glasses and credit cards. Sometimes I can't even find myself. I don't need more I can't find.

 

Roland

[han]

I don't think these rules force you to have a cell phone so that you can turn it in. If you don't have one then you are still allowed to play. :)

[vdoubleu]

After reading a lot of the comments over the past several days, I would just like to remind all of you, before you get in a twist, that this clearly is a problem that should be addressed.

 

Now, perhaps, some of you have some other suggestions about how the League should go about it. Then why not mention those, rather than ranting about what you might do w/o the use of yr cell for several hrs.

 

They are trying their best to deal with something that few of us would care to even acknowledge exists: cheating.

 

Yes, I realize that if players want to cheat, they will find all sorts of ways to do it.

 

Valerie Westheimer

 

:)

[inquiry]

I will not be staying at the host hotel (staying with a friend). I will not have a car. So i will go "home" only to sleep. What am I to do with my cell phone. Leave it there? I need to contact partners (to schedule where to meet, etc), friends (to meet for dinner. lunch, etc), and family (back on east coast, will be asleep by the time I get back to the friends house.

 

I certainly would be willing to "check it" for a "free" or a small fee while sessions are going on. Between sessions, I expect to have access to it so I can use it, and then to "check it" again for no extra cost. I really doubt the ACBL is going to ready to handle thousands of cell phones safely and efficiently. Until they are, such a ban will be "ignored" by their members (ok, batteries out perhaps, turned off maybe, some with vibrate). I will not get any critical calls while playing but I don't want to go all day without it.. which is what this ban will cause if I follow it.

[finally17]

I certainly would be willing to "check it" for a "free" or a small fee while sessions are going on. Between sessions, I expect to have access to it so I can use it, and then to "check it" again for no extra cost. I really doubt the ACBL is going to ready to handle thousands of cell phones safely and efficiently. Until they are, such a ban will be "ignored" by their members (ok, batteries out perhaps, turned off maybe, some with vibrate). I will not get any critical calls while playing but I don't want to go all day without it.. which is what this ban will cause if I follow it.

You would pay for the right to follow a stupid rule? Wow.

[finally17]

Ok, this will probably just fuel on the folks I already disagree with, but I had to post it, despite still holding the position that this ban is stupid. I just found this link on fark.com (a humorous web news aggregator).

 

The tagline made me laugh:

 

"It used to be that people who were always reachable were cool and important. Today a person is interesting if he can afford to turn off his cell phone"

 

It's a direct quote from the article, made by a so-called "style trainer." And here's the article link: How the Digital World is Changing Behavioural Norms.

[david_c]

After reading a lot of the comments over the past several days, I would just like to remind all of you, before you get in a twist, that this clearly is a problem that should be addressed.

Well, no, I disagree. Not with the fact that cheating is a potential problem, but with the idea that we have to do something about it. Given the many different ways there are to cheat at bridge, I believe we will always have to rely to some extent on the good faith of the players. Any rule designed to make cheating more difficult must be weighed against the adverse affects on innocent players. If there is no acceptable "solution" it is better to do nothing. IMO the old regulations about mobile phones were sufficient for a NABC.

[helene_t]

As it is now, I can't find my keys, pipe, tobacco, glasses and credit cards. Sometimes I can't even find myself. I don't need more I can't find.

I sympathize. I often can't find my pass cards.