CSGibson Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 [hv=d=e&v=n&s=satxxhadat8xxxxca]133|100|Scoring: IMP(4♠)-4N-(P)-?[/hv] 4N is a two-suited takeout. Any thoughts on how to proceed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 5D followed by 6D, may make. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Weird hand. I'll take a chance pard really doesn't have diamonds and start with 5♦. Over the expected 5♥, I'll try 5N pick-a-slam and hopefully I'll hear 6♦. I'll pass 6♣ I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 5 + 6♦, though I think Phil's sequence is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 I think we have to allow partner to play the hand in one of his suits. There is a very real danger that we will take NO tricks in his hand if diamonds are trump. Picture x KQJ10x x KQJxxx... surely a reasonable construction for an Aceless hand to force to the 5-level. So I prefer Phil's sequence over Whereagles, but I'm not happy with either.. nor with anything I can come up with :) The danger with Phil's sequence is twofold: 1. We will almost certainly be playing in 6♣ if partner interpretes 5N as a choice of slams. That is fine on my example hand, but why can't he be x KQJ10xx x KQJxx? Note that he can't get to his hand to pull trump except by ruffing and now he is at the mercy of a 4-3 trump split. And even that is no good if opener can ruff the second round of diamonds from a 3 card trump holding. We want to play in his longer suit if possible. 2. Is it clear that the sequence 5♦ then 5N invites 6♣? The normal meaning of 5♦ is that we prefer both diamonds and hearts over clubs AND that we have no slam interest if he holds the minors. Now we bid 5N over his 5♥... how can we suddenly have a slam-force hand UNLESS WE LIKE HEARTS? He can figure out that our diamonds are long and that we have a great hand, but might he not (reasonably) infer that we have no interest in clubs? I don't know the answer to this, nor do I expect that many will ever have discussed it. My 'solution'? I really don't have one. I choose 5♠. This is surely a slam force with first round spade control and a grand slam try as opposed to 5N which is merely pick a slam. I like to think that this should get partner bidding his longer suit, and 5N with 6-6 or 5-5. If he is 5-5, we are almost certainly screwed. I don't expect him to bid grand, but, if he does, I think we may make it: x KQJ109x void KQJ10xx. Maybe I am kidding myself, in that he will always bid his cheaper suit not matter what I bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jlall Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Maybe I'm crazy but I would just bid 5C here. I am 1-1 in partner's suits so I'm not driving to slam. I am not even that optimistic about making game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Maybe I'm crazy but I would just bid 5C here. I am 1-1 in partner's suits so I'm not driving to slam. I am not even that optimistic about making game...How aggressive are you in 2nd seat over a 4♠ opening, holding no Aces? I am not saying you are wrong in your view, but I am suggesting that you are playing partner to be pretty aggressive if you are swinging low. White against red, I'd be with you, but at equal, it's not clear to me that partner will be 5-5 with poor(ish) suits :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Mike: If I'm offering a choice between 6C and 6H, why would pard take preference to a 5 card suit over 6? I think you are implying that pard would assume we have more of an appetite for hearts over clubs since we bid 5D but I can't see why thats the case once we pull 5H. 5S is interesting, but I feel strongly about suggesting, though not insisting on diamonds. 5S just makes it really tough to ever play diamonds, although I haven't considered the nuances between 5S and 5N. Pard will bid 6C every time and we will pull to 6D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerclee Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Maybe I'm crazy but I would just bid 5C here. I am 1-1 in partner's suits so I'm not driving to slam. I am not even that optimistic about making game... I agree with this. 5♣ for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Mike: If I'm offering a choice between 6C and 6H, why would pard take preference to a 5 card suit over 6? I think you are implying that pard would assume we have more of an appetite for hearts over clubs since we bid 5D but I can't see why thats the case once we pull 5H. I think this is a very tough hand, and that perhaps a year from now we can have partner's hand posted (assuming that the 4N bid is something most of us could accept) and then give either or both of our sequences. I do agree (I think you are suggesting) that the sequence of 5♦ and then a slam move shows a very unusual hand. We have slam values yet we risked playing in 5♦... this in turn suggests that our diamonds are so long that we 'knew' that partner had to bid again. So I think you have persuaded me that your 5N should still involve clubs, as well as the reds. I remain concerned that diamonds will be the wrong trump suit, especially if he is 0=6=2=5 or 0=5=2=6 but we can't cater to everything. I am still not entirely sure that this sequence is better than mine. I have known of 12 or even 13 card fits, and one thing is clear: if he passes 5♦, unlikely tho that is, we have a terrible result :) And your route will never reach grand... not that mine is likely to either... but it could be cold. All in all, a tough problem and I'm glad I haven't faced it at the table :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Maybe I'm crazy but I would just bid 5C here. I am 1-1 in partner's suits so I'm not driving to slam. I am not even that optimistic about making game...How aggressive are you in 2nd seat over a 4♠ opening, holding no Aces? I am not saying you are wrong in your view, but I am suggesting that you are playing partner to be pretty aggressive if you are swinging low. White against red, I'd be with you, but at equal, it's not clear to me that partner will be 5-5 with poor(ish) suits B) How about - KQJxx xx KQ9xxx? Given the preempt, I don't like my chances in 6♣ opposite this, and I don't think partner can afford to pass with this hand. In fact I would claim this hand is fairly typical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pclayton Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Maybe I'm crazy but I would just bid 5C here. I am 1-1 in partner's suits so I'm not driving to slam. I am not even that optimistic about making game...How aggressive are you in 2nd seat over a 4♠ opening, holding no Aces? I am not saying you are wrong in your view, but I am suggesting that you are playing partner to be pretty aggressive if you are swinging low. White against red, I'd be with you, but at equal, it's not clear to me that partner will be 5-5 with poor(ish) suits B) How about - KQJxx xx KQ9xxx? Given the preempt, I don't like my chances in 6♣ opposite this, and I don't think partner can afford to pass with this hand. In fact I would claim this hand is fairly typical. Why would slam be poor with this hand? It seems all we need are 4-2 or 3-3 splits in clubs and 4-3 in hearts (or a squeeze). Even with the preempt, this has to be a big favorite to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Maybe I'm crazy but I would just bid 5C here. I am 1-1 in partner's suits so I'm not driving to slam. I am not even that optimistic about making game...How aggressive are you in 2nd seat over a 4♠ opening, holding no Aces? I am not saying you are wrong in your view, but I am suggesting that you are playing partner to be pretty aggressive if you are swinging low. White against red, I'd be with you, but at equal, it's not clear to me that partner will be 5-5 with poor(ish) suits B) How about - KQJxx xx KQ9xxx? Given the preempt, I don't like my chances in 6♣ opposite this, and I don't think partner can afford to pass with this hand. In fact I would claim this hand is fairly typical. Why would slam be poor with this hand? It seems all we need are 4-2 or 3-3 splits in clubs and 4-3 in hearts (or a squeeze). Even with the preempt, this has to be a big favorite to make. Depends on preemptor. Let's assume he can't have 7222. If he has 7321 (unlikely IMO) then you need him to have short diamonds, or 7123. If he has 7411 you have lost. If he has 8 cards, you need him to be specifically 8212 or 8113 (ignoring all hands with voids for simplicity). This doesn't look like good odds to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I have never answered this way before. But I have no freaking clue what to do! I guess I'll bid 5NT then pull 6♣ to 6♦. I just can't bear to miss diamonds if partner actually has that suit, and if he doesn't it's as bad of a guess as anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 1. We will almost certainly be playing in 6♣ if partner interpretes 5N as a choice of slams. That is fine on my example hand, but why can't he be x KQJ10xx x KQJxx? Note that he can't get to his hand to pull trump except by ruffing and now he is at the mercy of a 4-3 trump split. And even that is no good if opener can ruff the second round of diamonds from a 3 card trump holding. We want to play in his longer suit if possible. I think partner will choose 6♥ if he is 6=5. 5♥ said hearts and clubs. If we want to play in clubs opposite five we can bid 6♣. Therefore we expect partner to bid a six-bagger with either 6-5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Maybe I'm crazy but I would just bid 5C here. I am 1-1 in partner's suits so I'm not driving to slam. I am not even that optimistic about making game... xKQJxxxxKQJxx looks pretty minimum for 4NT so i think there is a good chance that partner has some extra distribution of something decent in diamonds. either case gives some play for slam and excellent play for game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I have no idea either. I quite like Phil's sequence, but would not have thought of it at the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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