Bizarre auction

[paulg]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=sxh9xxxxxdatxxcxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP

                        (1♣)

Pass (Pass) Dbl (3♠)

Pass (4♠)    Dbl (Pass)

?[/hv]

Your three opponents will play in the Lady Milne (womens' home internationals) next month.

 

Your call.

[Codo]

We just learned in another thread that a second or third double does not change the nature of the hand. So Pd still has a take out of clubs. Opps find a 8 card fit, we should have an about 10 card heart fit. I have one trick for defence but will destroy any chance of possible heart tricks in partners hand.

 

So passing is obviously out.

That leaves some heart bids. 5 Heart is the minimum, but wait, if pd has Axxx, Akxx, KQ9x,x which is not to much given his bidding, 6 is ice cold.

 

But I still just bid 5 Heart. Maybe pd can raise with such a good hand.

[helene_t]

4♥ in previous round, please. Now 5♥.

[Gerben42]

4♥ on the previous round.

[joker_gib]

I bid 5♥ now and would have bid 4♥ previous round as the others.

[andy_h]

I will bid 5H now.

[gnasher]

I would have bid 2♥ over 1♣. Having not done that, I'd have bid 4♥ over 3♠.

[han]

I'm fine with the previous two passes and bid 5H now.

[ewj]

I would also bid 5♥ and would've passed last time

[jdonn]

4♥ previous round?!?!? uh....wow. I have a lot to learn about balancing doubles of 1♣!

[han]

To learn you have lots young Donn.

 

(bad yoda impression)

 

edit: "Lots to learn young Donn you have" is better?

[skjaeran]

Obvious to pass the first two times around. Now I'm acting: 5♥

[matmat]

To learn you have lots young Donn.

 

(bad yoda impression)

 

edit: "Lots to learn young Donn you have" is better?

i'd go for

 

to learn lots you have, young Donn, hmmmmm.

[whereagles]

another 5H bidder

[pclayton]

I bid 4♥ the 1st time. Oddly enough I pass now. I think pard has 4 spades and we have some tap possibilities.

 

Plus, I don't think we are making 5♥.

[Guest Jlall]

Passing 3S is a joke right?

 

edit: wtf jdonn?!?!?! Your RHO showed at least 11 black cards. The auction is about to be "do we bid on over 4S/5C or not?!" And you are 6-4 in the reds, with serious double game swing potential and believe that you should pass because you have 4 points? I think it's truly a joke to pass in this kind of auction with this kind of hand. It is a huge mistake. The situation that has come up now was about 100 % (partner is marked with some kind of strong hand etc). If we had bid 4H and partner Xed them we could pass comfortably since he chose not to bid 5 of a red suit knowing theres a huge black 2 suiter on his left.

[jdonn]

edit: wtf jdonn?!?!?!

Sorry about admitting I have a lot to learn! :) But I am sure not as confident as you in passing if I bid 4♥ before and partner doubles. I guess if he had bid 4♠ instead of 3♠ I'd really really have to bid.

[Guest Jlall]

edit: wtf jdonn?!?!?!

Sorry about admitting I have a lot to learn! :) But I am sure not as confident as you in passing if I bid 4♥ before and partner doubles. I guess if he had bid 4♠ instead of 3♠ I'd really really have to bid.

Partner is not a moron and won't be Xing them on red suit tricks once we've bid 4H. He has a lot of HCP obviously, and knows we don't have that many and that we're bidding on shape. He knows that LHO is fairly likely to have 10 tricks in his own hand opposite a fit, though may just have 9, he won't get rich Xing without good black suits. This is a common situation, like when you open and they bid michaels and then compete to the 5 level themselves etc. So if he makes what is obviously a "penalty" X of 4S and I have an ace I am really not too scared.

 

On the actual auction his X is not "penalty" and may be based on a hand that wants to encourage you to bid something at the 5 level, and that has a decent enough chance to beat them if you pass. As an example hand if I had QJx AKQx KQJx Ax I would feel compelled to X 4S, but I would certainly bid 5H if my partner had bid 4H.

 

Sure we are lucky on this deal that partner Xed 4S and we have an easy 5H bid, but what if he had not had enough defense to X 4S? Are we balancing with 5H? If so why not 4H to begin with, if not then I feel we will miss a ton of good saves and maybe some double game swings since partner needs such a huge hand to X again once we've passed. And we also screwed partner if he had them beat with a nice trump stack since he cannot make the second X here, but had we bid 4H he could have.

 

So basically I am very concerned about hands where partner will pass over 4S but would have bid 5H had we bid 4H since I think on those hands it will almost always be right for partner to have bid 5H, and I think these hands are a significant part of his range (since we know he has a lot of HCP, and they're probably mostly in the red suits given RHOs bidding). And to a lesser extent I'm worried about partner having a X based on good trumps that he cannot make once I pass 3S (out of fear of us pulling).

[pclayton]

Note that if you make a diamond a spade in Justin's hypothetical hand for pard, we are flat out crushing 4♠ on the tap. I'm not sure if pard is more likely to be 3442 or 4432/4342 here.

[the hog]

5H. Pass the previous 2.

[Halo]

5H

 

OK with previous passes.

[cherdano]

Note that if you make a diamond a spade in Justin's hypothetical hand for pard, we are flat out crushing 4♠ on the tap. I'm not sure if pard is more likely to be 3442 or 4432/4342 here.

If partner has 23 hcp, then opponents have 13 hcp. Unless we assume opponents are idiots they are not bidding to 4♠ on that with an 8-card fit. Stop your pipe uh tap dreams :P

[jdonn]

Note that if you make a diamond a spade in Justin's hypothetical hand for pard, we are flat out crushing 4♠ on the tap. I'm not sure if pard is more likely to be 3442 or 4432/4342 here.

If partner has 23 hcp, then opponents have 13 hcp. Unless we assume opponents are idiots they are not bidding to 4♠ on that with an 8-card fit. Stop your pipe uh tap dreams :P

Probably not on any fit. Unless partner is short enough in spades to double us back in again. I still don't see how partner knows we are weak, obv if he has 22 he does but what if he has like 15?

[paulg]

You can make 5♥ but the slam can fail on a diamond lead as the opener is void. You can always make 6♦ if partner ever decides to bid the suit.

 

The opposition can make 5♠ or, in our case, 4♠-X plus one. My partner took about 2 minutes to double 4♠ so I passed with this hand, but clearly that is nonsense and I should just bid 5♥.

 

I agree with Justin that 4♥ over 3♠ solves a lot of problems in the next round.

 

Paul

[Guest Jlall]

Note that if you make a diamond a spade in Justin's hypothetical hand for pard, we are flat out crushing 4♠ on the tap. I'm not sure if pard is more likely to be 3442 or 4432/4342 here.

If partner has 23 hcp, then opponents have 13 hcp. Unless we assume opponents are idiots they are not bidding to 4♠ on that with an 8-card fit. Stop your pipe uh tap dreams :)

Probably not on any fit. Unless partner is short enough in spades to double us back in again. I still don't see how partner knows we are weak, obv if he has 22 he does but what if he has like 15?

Partner having some 15 count is exactly when you want to have bid 4H. You WANT partner to be bidding 5H with these hands. It's not like partner will be thinking OMGZ lets double them partner freely bid game. Partner knows he needs at least 2 black tricks and a red trick to be doubling them.

 

I will just stress again that I feel really really really strongly that auctions where there is a big double fit and where one or more people clearly have two suiters etc the main thing MUST be getting your fits in, and doing the right thing. These are the hands that double game swings are made of and where LOTS of imps are going to be swung. HCP really have no relevance at all in these auctions imo

 

That in the actual hand you can make SLAM and they can make ELEVEN tricks in spades is not a strange occurance. It is a very common occurance, and if partners hand had been slightly weaker he would not have been able to make a second X and we would be stuck defending 4S undoubled which is just such a huge disaster.