Spade invites, sigh

[keylime]

Here's a hand during bidding practice that caused some troubles for us.

 

AKJxxx

Qxx

xx

xx

 

And you hear me open 1H, playing 4 card majors and canape. You use Kaplan Inversion, so you trot out 1NT, and then see me rebid 2D, canape, so I have longer diamonds than hearts.

 

What's 2S? For the record, 1H-2S with us is either a spade g/f or a 3-5-x-x g/f raise.

 

Thanks in advance.

[TimG]

Shouldn't this be identical to 1H-1S-2D without the inversion? 3S would likely be both invitational and an accurate description, wouldn't it?

[cherdano]

Uhm. 2S shows a desire to play 2S. You have been spending too much time with crazy systems, Dwayne, if this can even be a question :D

[jdonn]

Yeah, there is debatably an evaluation decision between 2♠ and 3♠ (I think the heart holding makes 3 clear) but there is certainly no system problem.

[rbforster]

Shouldn't this be identical to 1H-1S-2D without the inversion?  3S would likely be both invitational and an accurate description, wouldn't it?

Since this is 4 card major methods it's likely that partner has 4=5 in hearts and diamonds. Unlike the 5 card major auction where responder can choose between inviting with 3♥ in the known 5-3 fit or inviting with spades unilaterally with 3♠, here responder is stuck between wanting to know if opener has an extra heart or just blasting out his spades. I'm guessing here you're just stuck bidding 3♠ and hoping.

[keylime]

Arend,

 

The aim of the question is to determine if 2S is analogous to the impossible negative when promising spades to show a good raise in the canape. Since the changes implemented after Nashville, we've had this issue not appear before. Additionally, since he may only hold 4 spades for the 1NT call, I'm trying to see if there's a way to have our cake and eat it too.

 

For the record, tonight I think I'm playing a crazy foreign system called SAYC at the Unit Game... :D

[Guest Jlall]

No this is not analagous to the impossible 2S bid. The reason the impossible 2S bid exists is because it's not possible to have a natural 2S bid. Here it is clearly possible to have a natural 2S bid since you can just have 6+ spades and a weak hand. The analagous situation to the impossible 2S bid would be 1H 1S 2D 2S...

 

Is this for real...

[awm]

It doesn't seem like there's a way to answer this question without more information on system. In particular:

 

(1) There is a common problem with four-card major canape systems of what to do with a three-card limit raise. You don't want to raise to the three-level on a 4-3 fit and you don't want opener automatically rebidding a five-card major suit over a forcing notrump. Obviously there are solutions to this (for example you could use jump shifts to show an invitational hand with length in the bid suit and three-card support) but they will cost elsewhere in the system.

 

(2) Kaplan inversion may not be the best way to divide hands between 1♠/1NT responses. Obviously this also depends on your opening structure, but it is possibly better (for example) to play that 1♠ is either natural or the invitational variety of 1NT response whereas 1NT is never a good hand. In a canape system you could even play that 1NT guarantees 2-3 card support for opener's hearts (and opener is expected to rebid 2♥ with five) whereas 1♠ denies 2-3 hearts and can use a subsequent 2♥ by responder is a relay. There are lots of possibilities here.

[keylime]

Justin,

 

Yes, it's real. It caused a spirited discussion. Under the old scheme this was never an issue because 1H-2S was a different call. Admittedly, there is much argument for playing 1H-2S as a weak jump shift to begin resolution of this issue (and other parallel actions).

 

Adam,

 

For clarification, we play 1M-2M-2M+1 as a generic game try ask (along the lines of Nagy game tries), and we often will raise on three cards to an honor. We open all 10's that are 4-5's with shortage and all 11's. I'm starting to reconsider using the current definition we have of KI, and view other alternatives.

[benlessard]

Imo its quite important to have a way to invite and finish at 2S. I would play that an immediate 2S is weak and 1nt followed by 2S is inv. I dont feel confortable bidding 3S inv.

[Apollo81]

I don't understand how these 4 card major systems are playable. You could miss a 6-3 spade fit to play a 4-3 heart fit if you raise directly, and you could miss a 5-3 heart fit to play a 6-1 spade fit if you don't.

[awm]

I don't understand how these 4 card major systems are playable. You could miss a 6-3 spade fit to play a 4-3 heart fit if you raise directly, and you could miss a 5-3 heart fit to play a 6-1 spade fit if you don't.

While I basically agree with Noble on this, a few points should be mentioned.

 

First, this problem doesn't really exist in non-canape systems. Playing four-card majors, you bid 1♥-1♠ and then if partner rebids 2m you know he has five hearts, at which point you can make your limit raise. If partner rebids 1NT then you know he has either a balanced hand or 1444 (if that opens 1♥) and you can rebid spades confident that you either have a fit there or you have no fit at all. In addition you can probably bid 2♣...2♥ to show a three-card limit raise here at the two-level.

 

Second, you can get around some of this problem if opener's rebid normally clarifies whether or not he has a five-card major. For example, you could play that 1♠ is an artificial forcing bid over which opener bids 1NT with any hand including five hearts. This should clarify enough to allow you get to fits when you have them and not when you don't. Also, this is not a big problem necessarily with "single raise" hands since you can always fake a spade bid and "preference" to 2♥ (which probably even shows three if partner didn't guarantee five) or you can make a single raise if you have three hearts and a minor (trusting partner to clarify his heart length if he has a game try over this). The issue is more on the limit-raise hands.

[mike777]

"1) There is a common problem with four-card major canape systems of what to do with a three-card limit raise. You don't want to raise to the three-level on a 4-3 fit and you don't want opener automatically rebidding a five-card major suit over a forcing notrump. Obviously there are solutions to this (for example you could use jump shifts to show an invitational hand with length in the bid suit and three-card support) but they will cost elsewhere in the system.'

 

In the 4 card major canape system I learned, you simple never never raise on 3 cards. An opening bid of 1h or 1s promises a two suited hand 100%, 4+, canape very often. A direct raise always promises 4 card support, never 3.

 

 

With only 3 card support you bid something else and let partner describe his hand further with his rebid.

[mike777]

Here's a hand during bidding practice that caused some troubles for us.

 

AKJxxx

Qxx

xx

xx

 

And you hear me open 1H, playing 4 card majors and canape. You use Kaplan Inversion, so you trot out 1NT, and then see me rebid 2D, canape, so I have longer diamonds than hearts.

 

What's 2S? For the record, 1H-2S with us is either a spade g/f or a 3-5-x-x g/f raise.

 

Thanks in advance.

I do not play kaplan relay but I hope the following is helpful.

 

1h!=1s!

2d!=3s!

 

1s! is Herbert relay.

 

btw 2s rebid now would be 6-7 pts including dist and a 6 card suit.

QJT973...98....64....Q64 is typical.

 

 

3s shows a concentrated ten hcp and 6 spades.

 

I suppose you could bid:

 

1h!=1nt!

2d!=3s?