do you open 1nt with hands like this...?

[jocdelevat]

[hv=d=n&v=e&s=saq86ha94daj93ct6]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

[hv=d=n&v=e&s=saq86ha94daj93ct6]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

 

I played in a tourney with an advanced player (had a 6 ACBL #) and he told me that with 3 aces balance hands even if the range right not good to open 1nt. He played very well during the whole tourney imo however I never heard

this theory before.

[Guest Jlall]

yes open 1N all day.

[jtfanclub]

I could believe on the first hand that you're better off opening 1♦. Seems better suited for suit play. Not that there's anything wrong with 1NT, of course.

 

The second hand looks unbiddible to me if you don't open it 1NT. It goes 1♣-1♥...1NT? You're even worse of than if you'd opened 1NT. 2♥? Gross.

[Guest Jlall]

Please dont listen to anyone who says not to open 1N with either hand they are not experts and they have crackpot theories. You can trust me !H

 

Bridge is an easy game, focused on shape and points. You are balanced, and you are 15-17, so you can open 1N regardless of anything else.

[han]

Fully agree with Justin, except that you cannot trust me.

[Elianna]

Please dont listen to anyone who says not to open 1N with either hand they are not experts and they have crackpot theories.

Or they're old.

 

Or old fashioned.

[cjames]

1N on both every time

[gwnn]

You don't have a rebid afterwards (for example, you bid 1♣ on the second, what do you bid after 1♥?). It would be nice if you had 1NT as "15-17 no trumpy" and 1SA "15-17 suit ability" but that's not how bridge works so just use 1NT as "15-17 balanced, anywhere from 0 to 4 aces".

 

BTW I agree with Han that you should not trust him.

[jtfanclub]

Please dont listen to anyone who says not to open 1N with either hand they are not experts and they have crackpot theories.

Or they're old.

 

Or old fashioned.

I wonder if there's a good way to simulate the first one?

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with opening 1NT with the first one.

But it would not surprise me if you're better off opening it 1♦.

 

You've got a small doubleton.

Your hand is suit oriented (quick tricks).

You have no rebid issues.

 

Is it old fashioned? Sure. That doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.

 

The second hand has to be opened 1NT. It's fine to open the first hand 1NT too.

[vuroth]

Lots of aces = lots of tenaces = want to declare in NT?

 

I open 1NT on both, but honestly, I'm not certain that I see where the advice giver is even coming from.

 

V

[pclayton]

Some players have strange theories about bidding. Most are little old men with poor hygiene who have have dirty apartments and keep 10 years of newspapers in a stack in their living room.

 

Don't listen to them, lest you become one of them!

[Walddk]

I played in a tourney with an advanced player (had a 6 ACBL #) and he told me that with 3 aces balance hands even if the range right not good to open 1nt.

Sheer nonsense. If you don't open 1NT when you have 15-17 and are balanced, you can never convince partner that you have that hand. It's as simple as that.

 

Roland

[hrothgar]

I played in a tourney with an advanced player (had a 6 ACBL #) and he told me that with 3 aces balance hands even if the range right not good to open 1nt. He played very well during the whole tourney imo however I never heard

this theory before.

For what its worth, I've heard similar sentiments expressed on a number of occasions. I suspect that this line of thought has its root in a couple different sources:

 

1. Taking a good idea too far.

 

Most people on this forum probably agree that different hand evaluations schemes are better suited for suit contracts than no trump (and vice versa). As a simple example, the K+R scheme is much more accurate than simple 4-3-2-1 HCPs for suit contracts. However, the 4-3-2-1 scheme scores very well when evaluating NT contracts.

 

In general, Aces and Kings are better for suit contracts than NT.

 

Some players might extend this line of thinking and strain to avoid opening 1NT with a hand that seemed particular appropriate for suit play. (Aces and Spaces or some such)

 

2. General reticence towards opening 1NT

 

Back in the day before Stayman and Transfers filtered down to hoi polloi constructive bidding over NT openings sucked. Opening 1NT was somewhat akin to shootiing yourself in the head. Folks recognized this and seemed to actively search out new and better reasons to avoid 1NT openings.

 

Now a days people seem to invest enormous amounts of time in their response structures over NT openings. This often strikes me as one of the most elaborate parts of people's system.

 

For what its worth, I did play arround and tried following this advice for a bit... I recall some truly miserable results. I'm not at all fond of this style

 

Your milage may vary.

[Cascade]

1NT always.

 

People who expound this theory remember the rare occasion where partner had nothing and they won three tricks and forget or didnt appreciate all of the much more frequent times when those aces helped to build tricks.

[jdonn]

I give not opening 1NT a 1/10 on the first, and a -5/10 on the second.

[Guest Jlall]

Is it old fashioned? Sure. That doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.

Yes, it is bad, that is why only bad players do/say this.

 

It is not hard really, you have one shot to show a balanced 15-17 count. If you do not show it immediately, there is no bid to later show it. You will be forced to show some other hand type. Most likely you will end up showing a balanced 12-14 count. This is bad because that is not what you hold. It is not winning bridge to effectively downgrade a good 15 count to a 14 count. Your assertation that you will have no rebid problems is silly since no way of rebidding your hand shows this hand.

 

OP you can listen to people like jtfanclub and the guy who told you this originally or you can listen to EVERYONE else on this thread including 4 "stars" who say this is ridiculous. Good luck with your decision.

[matmat]

heh.... open something else if your NT range is 16-18... or are these worth upgrades?

[jillybean]

Beware of free advice on BBO! I fall prey to it too often.

This is a great place to check theories and you will soon know who is worth listening to and who is not. :P

[jtfanclub]

I said in my original reply, and I said in my second reply, I don't have any problem opening the first hand 1NT. I still don't. I haven't recommended one diamond for the first hand, and I don't know or claim that it's better.

 

The old style would be to open it one diamond, and later show a 15 count with club shortness.

I am quite convinced that that's not what the stars are doing these days.

[Walddk]

The old style would be to open it one diamond, and later show a 15 count with club shortness.

I am quite convinced that that's not what the stars are doing these days.

You are quite right (last sentence). By the way, how did they show a 15 count with short clubs in the old days? Furthermore, since when is a doubleton known as "short" in this context?

 

Roland

[jocdelevat]

I posted the 2 hands because for some time I got invited to play in tourney by players with higher level than mine and then receice a lot of criticism from them during the tourney. I do not understand why someone make an invitation to a weak player then gets upset about his play. Why he didn't invite a player same level as him or better. I'm open to advice and you can even be rude if you are right about what you are saying then I do not care.

I receiced that "advice" for the second hand(posted here) and I thought was something I didn't know because I made contract. Why criticize for a mistake that didn't exist especially when you know I'm the weaker player and you invited me.

The first hand posted here I played as he require and open 1d then opps overcall even twice and bid as I never open. I can say we got lucki to set them -1 in their 2sx contract.

[jocdelevat]

the full hands:

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=sk9752hkt832d8cj9&w=s43hq75dk62c87543&e=saq86ha94daj93ct6&s=sjthj6dqt754cakq2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 Pass  Pass  1♦    Pass

 Pass  1♠    1NT   Pass

 Pass  2♥    Pass  2♠

 Pass  Pass  Dbl   Pass

 Pass  Pass  

 

 

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=sk9752hkt832d8cj9&w=s43hq75dk62c87543&e=saq86ha94daj93ct6&s=sjthj6dqt754cakq2]399|300|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

West North East South

 

 -     1NT   Pass  2NT

 Pass  3NT   Pass  Pass

 Pass  

[han]

I posted the 2 hands because for some time I got invited to play in tourney by players with higher level than mine and then receice a lot of criticism from them during the tourney.

You are completely correct, it is not right to get upset when you invite a beginner/intermediate player and they play like an beginner/intermediate player. At the same time, not getting upset when your partner makes mistakes that from your perspective are almost impossible is not always easy. So while getting angry is very bad, I can certainly relate to it.

 

On the first hand your bidding was really wrong. 1♦ as suggested by the advanced player is very bad to start with. Then 1NT when partner has passed shows about 18-19 points, you had 15. Given that you have already shown a hand much stronger than you have, you really should leave it up to partner to decide whether to double or not.

[barmar]

One the 2nd hand your 1NT opening was fine. However, your 3NT bid was wrong; 2NT asks you to bid 3NT if you have more than a minimum, but a 4333 with 15 HCP is about as minimum as they come (not counting upgraded 14-counts). It looks like it makes due to a lucky lie of the cards -- the ♦s block and West is squeezed on the run of the ♣s. But just because a contract makes doesn't make the bid correct, it just means you got away with it this time.

[matmat]

One the 2nd hand your 1NT opening was fine. However, your 3NT bid was wrong; 2NT asks you to bid 3NT if you have more than a minimum, but a 4333 with 15 HCP is about as minimum as they come (not counting upgraded 14-counts). It looks like it makes due to a lucky lie of the cards -- the ♦s block and West is squeezed on the run of the ♣s. But just because a contract makes doesn't make the bid correct, it just means you got away with it this time.

not to mention that the 2N bidder has not heard of the myriad of ways to locate a 44 major suit fit.