A difficult Auction

[Guest Jlall]

All bidding by your side:

 

1D 1H

2C 3C

3D ?

 

What does 3S mean here? What does 3H mean?

 

Full hand:

 

[hv=w=skhaxdajxxxxcajtx&e=saxhjtxxdqxck98xx]266|100|[/hv]

 

Auction went:

 

1D 1H

2C 3C

3D 3S

4H 5C

p

 

Assign the blame?

[Finch]

Do you think 3D is forcing (I do)?

If so, what bids by responder allow the partnership to stop below game (to my mind, responder can bid 4C and be passed, or bid 3H then pass 4C by opener)

 

After 3D,

 

3H shows interest in playing in hearts, or at least acceptance of a game try with good hearts (after the 3D bid a heart contract is pretty unlikely). Say xx KQJxx Jx Kxxx

 

3S is 4th suit forcing (this won't be a popular interpretation by the US crowd I predict) showing a suitable hand to accept a game try but nothing better to bid.

 

3NT/4D are natural, 4C is natural and NF, so 3S is a forcing 4C bid if you like.

 

4H was clearly a cue for clubs. Once neither player has bid 3H on the previous round you can not play in them.

 

On your auction East underbid. Playing sound opening bids he had a game force over 2C but decided to bid a conservative 3C (game hardly needs that much from opener, it must have been matchpoints). He had a "forcing 4C bid" over 3D, so I agree with 3S.

 

I don't understand the sign-off over 4H. Obviously East either thought 3S was a cue for clubs over 3D, or was concerned that 4H was an attempt to play there, else he would have made the obvious 4S cue bid.

 

Opener has made a slam try opposite a non-forcing 3C bid. How can East not bid a slam with a fifth trump and 3 working cards? If anything West has been a bit aggressive, as I would expect slam to be cold rather than just good with the East hand.

[Guest Jlall]

Yes I think 3D is forcing to 4C given that a NF hand can just pass 3C but if anyone disagrees please say so. Obviously it affects the rest of the auction.

[Fluffy]

3♠: I have something in spades but not enough for 3NT.

 

 

I don't understand East's 5♣ unless he though that 4♥ denied a diamond control 4♠ shouled be celar. IMO he is to blame for missing a good slam, but your cuebidding style might say the contrary.

[whereagles]

>> What does 3S mean here? What does 3H mean?

 

3♠ = asks for a spade half-stop (if you want to know why, I can tell you)

3♥ = good 5 card suit, willing to play the 5-2 fit, no spade help

 

>> Assign the blame?

 

Opener could have bid 3♠ instead of 3♦.

 

Responder could have bid 3NT instead of 3♠.

 

So 50/50, unless you were playing, in which case it's 100/0 to you :)

[Guest Jlall]

For those who think 3S asks for a stopper/is 4th suit forcing/shows a tenuous spade stopper what do you bid over 3D with KQJ Jxxx xx Axxx? 3N? Do you feel comfortable with that?

[gnasher]

For those who think 3S asks for a stopper/is 4th suit forcing/shows a tenuous spade stopper what do you bid over 3D with KQJ Jxxx xx Axxx? 3N? Do you feel comfortable with that?

3NT, yes; comfortable, no.

 

If you use 3H to show five good hearts, the only bid available for showing doubt about stops is 3S. You are more likely to have doubt about the spade stop than doubt about the heart stop, so it seems best to use 3S as asking for something in spades rather than for something in hearts.

[Guest Jlall]

For those who think 3S asks for a stopper/is 4th suit forcing/shows a tenuous spade stopper what do you bid over 3D with KQJ Jxxx xx Axxx? 3N? Do you feel comfortable with that?

3NT, yes; comfortable, no.

 

If you use 3H to show five good hearts, the only bid available for showing doubt about stops is 3S. You are more likely to have doubt about the spade stop than doubt about the heart stop, so it seems best to use 3S as asking for something in spades rather than for something in hearts.

Sure, but why do you need 3H specifically to show 5 good hearts? How about bidding 3H when you have something in hearts and need something in spades (can include a hand with 5 good hearts), and if partner raises that to 4H you can just pull to 5C if you didn't have 5 hearts and only had some hand with no spade stop. Then you can bid 3S with spades stopped and not hearts.

 

Basically given that opener has shown 6-4 I want to pretend like no major has been bid and give 3M the meaning it would have in that case, just with the special case that you can still play a 5-2 heart fit.

[pclayton]

3♠--> Anti-positional or weak spade stopper

3♥--> Probe toward 3N. Needs help in spades but good hearts.

 

I give East the blame here. With a pard that is fishing for slam, the 5 trump, ♠A and ♦xx are all nice cards. I think east has a mandatory cue of 4♠.

[kenrexford]

Very similar problem to the auction in another post where Responder courtesy corrected to 2♦ and Opener rebid 3♣.

 

It seems to me that this is a blended proposition. I think that the major bid by Responder might be a landing zone, but not necessarily.

 

My take:

 

3♥ (original major) shows values in hearts. This could be a playable five-piece, it could be expressing need for help in spades, or it could be a cue in support, either for slam tries or for game tries. Uncertain at this point. If Opener eventually bids 4♥, that call offers 4♥ as a final contract, with Responder free to pass if so inclined. If Opener bids 3NT, then Responder can pull, suggesting that 3♥ was potentially slam-investigatory. If Opener mypasses 3NT, the partnership might make slam noises, but 4♥ is off-limits and passable. 4♠, in my way of thinking, would be RKCB. In all cases, 4♣ is passable. So, it appears that 4♦ by either side would be LTTC and expressing slam interest.

 

3♠ (new major) shows values in spades. This is either expressing concern about the heart suit for 3NT or a cue for slam purposes. Similar principles follow. Note that 3♠ has implicit "empathetic splinter" connotations (weakness in hearts) when Responder cooperates in a slam move, somewhat at least. Note also that 3♠ eliminates 4♥ as a possible final contract.

 

BTW -- if Opener bids 3♠ after 3♥, I think this is also blended. Responder can offer 3NT, but Opener might move on, clarifying the meaning.

 

Assuming this scheme, Responder's 3♠ call is perfect.

 

Given that meaning, Opener could opt for a 3NT call, but I can understand moving forward. Bidding 4♣ would seem to be wrong, as that would be passable. Bidding 4♦ as LTTC makes some sense, except that 4♦ should be a real cue with 4♥ no longer an offer to play a heart contract.

 

What is 4♥, though? If 4♥ is in this sequence RKCB, which has some merit (4♥ is now the cheapest out-of-focus minor), then I think Opener's better call is 4♠, a "Last Train" resembling cuebid, showing a heart control, a spade card, and poor diamonds, with slam interest but not enough to ask questions.

 

If 4♥ is LTTC, that works. It imnplies a heart control, a necessary holding here, and invites Opener to use 4♠ as RKCB, or, if 4NT would be RKCB, to do that or to re-try a 4♠ cue.

 

If 4♥ is simply a cue, that works, as the implied control would be clarified as a first-round control with slam interest.

 

I'll reserve judgment on "which" for a moment.

 

Now, as to Responder's 5♣ call. If in response to 4♥ as LTTC, I think Responder owed a 4♠ or 4NT call, whichever is not asking but cooperating. If in response to 4♥ as a cue, then I think again Responder should cue back. If in Response to RKCB, then the bid was right, as Responder has two without the Queen.

 

So, this seems to boil down to agreements. My preference here is for the cheaper out-of-focus major to be RKCB. Because 3♠ made hearts now out of focus, 4♥ should have been RKCB, 5♣ the right answer, and Opener's decision to ask rather than show unsound. I would instead cue 4♠ as Opener, hear 4NT LTTC from Responder, and then commit to the slam as Opener.

 

If, however, 4♥ was a cue or LTTC, which is a fair agreement (perhaps 4NT is always RKCB, or perhaps 4♠ is RKCB), then 4♥ was the right call either way and Responder should have cooperated with his nice collection.

[Apollo81]

Without commenting on the meanings of 3♥/3♠ at responder's third bid, I assign most/all of the blame to East for not bidding 4♠ over 4♥. This makes it clear that East is interested in slam, which was not clear at any of his previous calls.

[Apollo81]

what do you bid over 3D with KQJ Jxxx xx Axxx? 3N? Do you feel comfortable with that?

 

I would bid 3♠ if I was confident partner would interpret 3M as you described. My "default" action is 3NT with this hand since esp with a random (even an expert) I wouldn't be confident about this.

[jdonn]

I use a bid of either major to imply weakness for 3NT in the other. I bid 3♠ with KQJ Jxxx in the majors as I think partner is entitled to assume you have your own major taken care of if you bid 3NT. I really think the best meaning of 4♥ or 4♠ over 3♦ is a cuebid but that would certainly take an agreement ahead of time. Failing that I would start with 3♠ not intending to pass 3NT. I hate advance cuebids but don't see much choice as 4♣ is not forcing and 5♣ leaves partner guessing. That seems to be what east did, so I think east just has to bid slam over 4♥.

 

I don't see how it can make sense to have bidding either major show weak spades, but if you have weak hearts you are just left guessing. You can easily use 3♥ as either spade weakness OR 5 good hearts, as partner can't have both a 3NT bid and a raise of the heart suit at the same time.

 

I believe 3♦ is forcing since 3♣ already implied more than a minimum.

[Echognome]

I really think the best meaning of 4♥ or 4♠ over 3♦ is a cuebid but that would certainly take an agreement ahead of time.

Why not a Bluhmer (for 4♥)? Or is that too esoteric?

[jdonn]

I really think the best meaning of 4♥ or 4♠ over 3♦ is a cuebid but that would certainly take an agreement ahead of time.

Why not a Bluhmer (for 4♥)? Or is that too esoteric?

No that is the undiscussed expert meaning imo and in fact would have been a great bid. I didn't even think of it. Of course you can't risk it with most people.

[gnasher]

Basically given that opener has shown 6-4 I want to pretend like no major has been bid and give 3M the meaning it would have in that case, just with the special case that you can still play a 5-2 heart fit.

That's clearly a better way to use the two bids, but without any agreement to play them the way you suggest, I'd assume the default (for me) interpretations, which is that suits we've already bid are natural, and the fourth suit is fourth-suit forcing.

 

The set of auctions where I'd want to play what you suggest is quite small: our side has to have bid only minors, apart from one bid in a major where we're known not to have an eight-card fit, and the bidding must be at 2NT, 3C or 3D.

[kenrexford]

I really think the best meaning of 4♥ or 4♠ over 3♦ is a cuebid but that would certainly take an agreement ahead of time.

Why not a Bluhmer (for 4♥)? Or is that too esoteric?

No that is the undiscussed expert meaning imo and in fact would have been a great bid. I didn't even think of it. Of course you can't risk it with most people.

This is amusing to me.

 

Let's see. It is considered to be the undiscussed expert practice in a sequence like this for a jump into a suit to show nothing of value in that suit but slam interest if that suit is partner's short suit.

 

In other words, Responder knows that Opener has a stiff in one of the majors. So, he imagines that it might be in hearts. He jumps in hearts to show that, had Opener made a splinter in hearts, Responder would have accepted that splinter bid slam try.

 

This seems to make some sense. I seem to have some recollection of another similar bidding principle very much like this one. I just cannot put my finger on it...

 

:o

[jdonn]

Let's see.  It is considered to be the undiscussed expert practice in a sequence like this for a jump into a suit to show nothing of value in that suit but slam interest if that suit is partner's short suit.

No, It is considered to be the undiscussed expert practice in a sequence like this for a jump into a suit that would be impossible as natural to show just about the absolute best hand possible for the auction to date, without regard to controls.

[kenrexford]

Let's see.  It is considered to be the undiscussed expert practice in a sequence like this for a jump into a suit to show nothing of value in that suit but slam interest if that suit is partner's short suit.

No, It is considered to be the undiscussed expert practice in a sequence like this for a jump into a suit that would be impossible as natural to show just about the absolute best hand possible for the auction to date, without regard to controls.

Ah, but that's not the definition of a "Bluhmer" that you can find, for instance, in most bridge glossaries. The bid shows a maximum hand possible with no wasted values in partner's stiff suit.

 

For example, consider the definition from Bridge World: "a call, often a jump bid, that encourages high-level action (usually a slam-try) by denying values opposite partner's short suit."

 

Or, Bridge Guys: "A call, often a jump bid, which encourages high-level action, usually a slam-try, by denying values opposite partner's short suit." Same thing.

[ASkolnick]

I'm dumb, so I'll ask.

 

3D: Does it show shape (6-4) or does it show a cue-bid?

 

If shape,

wouldn't that require opener to bid 4D to indicate the Ace of Diamonds. Switch the AD to the KD and I don't think you like slam as much?

 

If a cue-bid,

Then partner has a big hand with the diamond.

 

On this hand, even if you don't know.

3S has to be a probe for 3N without a 5 card heart suit.

It is possible that a 5-2 heart fit could play better.

 

 

Opener with the 6-4-2-1 needs to know about the AS. So, he should cue-bid the AS since I don't think 3S showed that.

 

Personally, I like 4D better than 4H as the cue-bid on the auction though.

 

If partner has the AS, he can cue-bid it. If not and the auction goes, 4D-4H-5C, he can figure out you are missing the spade.

[kenrexford]

I'm dumb, so I'll ask.

 

3D: Does it show shape (6-4) or does it show a cue-bid?

 

If shape,

wouldn't that require opener to bid 4D to indicate the Ace of Diamonds. Switch the AD to the KD and I don't think you like slam as much?

 

If a cue-bid,

Then partner has a big hand with the diamond.

 

On this hand, even if you don't know.

3S has to be a probe for 3N without a 5 card heart suit.

It is possible that a 5-2 heart fit could play better.

 

 

Opener with the 6-4-2-1 needs to know about the AS. So, he should cue-bid the AS since I don't think 3S showed that.

 

Personally, I like 4D better than 4H as the cue-bid on the auction though.

 

If partner has the AS, he can cue-bid it. If not and the auction goes, 4D-4H-5C, he can figure out you are missing the spade.

The problem with a 4♦ cuebid, IMO, is that it overstates the secondaries, the quality of the diamond suit. The failure to cue 4♦, but to seek slam anyway, suggests not having two of the top three honors, which is precisely what Opener has.

 

The issue concerning the diamonds being headed by the King or Ace is a valid one, to a degree. But, I think the possession of the diamond Ace is strongly inferred anyway, as Opener holding K-Ax-KJ10xxx-AJ10x would need too much for slam.

 

In my opinion, the purpose of the spade cue or Last Train is to suggest the diamond Queen and primes, which Opener accepts because he knows that the spade King is huge.

[Cascade]

I really think the best meaning of 4♥ or 4♠ over 3♦ is a cuebid but that would certainly take an agreement ahead of time.

Why not a Bluhmer (for 4♥)? Or is that too esoteric?

No that is the undiscussed expert meaning imo and in fact would have been a great bid. I didn't even think of it. Of course you can't risk it with most people.

What is Bluhmer?

[Cascade]

There is a big problem when you make a move at the three-level over an agreed minor with ambiguity. This has been highlighted in other recent threads.

 

I think over 3♦ you can only bid 3NT with both majors stopped - 1♥ only promised ♥ xxxx and opener could be stiff or worse. This suggests 3♠ shows spades with poor hearts.

 

How you recover from this search for 3NT is where the problems occur.

 

To avoid this we prefer an unambiguous 4♣ to initiate the slam try and leave the 3-level for hands that want to investigate strain.

[655321]

Interesting discussion.

 

I guess the blame must go to East. Presumably, East did not bid 4♠ over 4♥ because he thought he had already cued his ♠A with 3♠. But for most people, 3♠ is not a cue agreeing clubs (game before slam, and all that), therefore East should have bid 4♠.

 

I don't agree with Frances that the East hand is too strong for 3♣.

 

Should 4♣ over 3♦ be forcing? There is a case for it, just because 3♦ shows extras, and East has an invitational hand. I do play 4m as forcing not invitational, but you could agree to play it either way.

[kenrexford]

FWIW, I don't agree that 4♥ as a "Bluhmer" (or an empathetic splinter, if you will) is right on this hand.

 

The "best possible hand" would be something like Kx of diamonds, KQxxx in clubs. The Qx in diamonds is a hesitant value, the spade Ace is nice but not internal, and the club contribution is limited.

 

Responder bidding 4♥ would work with Kx-KQxxx in the minors, and out, if Opener had the same minor holdings but a stiff heart and Ax in spades, for instance. With the actual hand, a 4♥ call would work, but it only works because Opener incorrectly evaluates the diamond strength but is saved by the unexpected value of his spade King.