Fourth Seat Decision

[rogerclee]

MPs, All Red

 

♠Qx ♥QTxxxxx ♦K ♣Kxx

 

(P)-P-(P)-?

[the hog]

Pass! Not even worth thinking about.

[gwnn]

repeat after me: all four seat problems depend on your partner and opponents.

[rogerclee]

repeat after me: all four seat problems depend on your partner and opponents.

Partner is expert, opponents are not.

[gwnn]

OK.

 

what does expert partner open on?

what do nonexpert opps open on?

[raduv]

pass, but worth thinking of it.

I'm tempted by 2[H] as it might buy the contract, buy I'm afraid I'll go overboard.

[jdonn]

repeat after me: all four seat problems depend on your partner and opponents.

Amen. There are certain situations in which I wouldn't dream of passing this hand out, or virtually any hand unless I had so little I was sure the opponents had made a mistake.

[skjaeran]

I'd normally pass this out. Have to be at the table to know though.

[pclayton]

Wow this is close. I hate to pass out hands that will negate our advantage in defense or declarer play, and this is a real pile o'cheese.

 

I'd probably open this 2♥ in all honesty. Many good things can happen that will create a plus score for us. It could go all pass, or we could pick up a plus defending. By passing, you are condemning yourself to whatever the field is doing not only in your seat, but in other seats as well.

[hrothgar]

Easy pass, even opposite a fairly sound opener

 

Give me a 6 card Spade suit and I'd be much more likely to bid

[the hog]

Wow this is close. I hate to pass out hands that will negate our advantage in defense or declarer play, and this is a real pile o'cheese.

 

I'd probably open this 2♥ in all honesty. Many good things can happen that will create a plus score for us. It could go all pass, or we could pick up a plus defending. By passing, you are condemning yourself to whatever the field is doing not only in your seat, but in other seats as well.

2H in 4th seat is a far better hand than this for most players. You will not make a game unless your pd has 3 Aces and she can't have that. A 4th seat 2 H opening shows not a weak 2, but about 8 tricks for most people. Who plays weak 2s in 4th seat?

[han]

Who plays weak 2s in 4th seat?

I play it as about 10-12, never ever heard of anybody playing 2H as 8 tricks but then, I haven't met most people yet.

[gnasher]

I play it as about 10-12, never ever heard of anybody playing 2H as 8 tricks but then, I haven't met most people yet.

Playing it as eight tricks is more common in countries where Acol two-bids used to be the norm - when people switched to weak twos in first, second and third, they sometimes left the fourth-seat openings unchanged.

[whereagles]

definitely pass... we got squat

[han]

I play it as about 10-12, never ever heard of anybody playing 2H as 8 tricks but then, I haven't met most people yet.

Playing it as eight tricks is more common in countries where Acol two-bids used to be the norm - when people switched to weak twos in first, second and third, they sometimes left the fourth-seat openings unchanged.

Weren't strong 2-bids the norm everywhere?

 

I'm going to poll some Dutch players to see if anybody still plays the 4th seat 2M as 8 tricks.

[pclayton]

Who plays weak 2s in 4th seat?

I play it as about 10-12, never ever heard of anybody playing 2H as 8 tricks but then, I haven't met most people yet.

Same here. I hate my honor dispersion but the hand fits the description otherwise.

 

I know Meyerson opens 2♥ here. C'mon dude, STEP UP.

[cherdano]

I didn't know The_Hog prefers ACOL.

[awm]

I know Meyerson opens 2♥ here. C'mon dude, STEP UP.

I figured that my preferences were so well known that there was no need to comment.

 

Sure, I'll bid 2♥. My view is that opening 2♥ should be the worst possible hand with a six-card heart suit where you would open in fourth chair. With a good hand, why not keep the auction low to explore for game/slam? With a bad hand, why give the opponents an easy overcall at the one level?

 

While it's certainly possible that the opponents might have a spade fit and go plus when I open 2♥ on this hand, they will have to get into the auction with two passed hands at the two-level. It's rather dangerous to overcall 2♠ when my partner has a good description of my hand and a penalty double available and I'd be surprised if many passed hands are really well-suited to this action.

[gnasher]

Weren't strong 2-bids the norm everywhere?

Yes, but weren't they different? As I understand it, in Goren and Culbertson two-bids were game-forcing, whereas in British Acol they're a one-round force, and in some other British styles they were strong but non-forcing. There's more reason to retain an almost useless agreement than a completely useless one.

 

I'm going to poll some Dutch players to see if anybody still plays the 4th seat 2M as 8 tricks.

Hmm. I'm not sure that I want my assertions tested with real research. What if it turns out to have been a gross overgeneralisation? I was, in fact, thinking mainly of the UK and Ireland, so what I said was a bit of an overbid.

 

According to this thread:

 

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.games...040bfe46b531559

 

the idea of playing weak twos in the first three positions but Acol twos in fourth originated with S J Simon.

[the hog]

I am a bit surprised that some are referring to a stronger bid in 4th seat as an Acol idea. A 4th seat opening really has nothing to do with Acol or 2/1 or any system for that matter. As I stated most, (in fact nearly all), the people I know would play a 2 level opening in pass out seat as at least an intermediate hand, in the range of 14-16, or about 8 playing tricks, certainly this is the norm here. Have a look at Klinger's ideas on balancing. A 3 level opening says "I have 9 tricks and only need 1 more from you".

[jdonn]

I am a bit surprised that some are referring to a stronger bid in 4th seat as an Acol idea.

Of course anyone plays it as stronger than in the other seats. But I have to join the crowd that certainly doesn't play it nearly as strong as you do, I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone play it THAT strong (although I don't know any acol players, so maybe there is a correlation after all?) Mine would be about 9-12, which is just a hair lighter than what I would consider the norm. Although I disagree with him on some particular judgments, I think awm is right on the money that it makes by far the most sense to open 2 on whatever are the worst hands you will open.

[dake50]

Which 10hcp could partner have where I would not be a favorite to make 8 tricks in hearts? 2H keeps partner's max-pass passing. I like this 2H bet as a 1-timer, not as a systemic bid. Wa-a-ay too flawed.

[gnasher]

I am a bit surprised that some are referring to a stronger bid in 4th seat as an Acol idea. A 4th seat opening really has nothing to do with Acol or 2/1 or any system for that matter.

What I actually said was that it was more common in areas where Acol two bids used to be the norm. I use the term "Acol two bid" because it's less unwieldy than "two bid showing eight playing tricks", and is, I believe, widely understood to mean the same thing. I didn't mean to exclude places where it was normal to play five card majors with Acol two bids, or, for that matter, Symmetric Relay with Acol two bids.

 

As I stated most, (in fact nearly all), the people I know would play a 2 level opening in pass out seat as at least an intermediate hand, in the range of 14-16, or about 8 playing tricks, certainly this is the norm here.

Which country is this in?

Edited March 5, 2008 by gnasher

[Gerben42]

I'm going to poll some Dutch players to see if anybody still plays the 4th seat 2M as 8 tricks.

 

8 tricks is certainly not what the junior trainer told us.

 

Gerben, another Dutch player abroad.

[the hog]

As I stated most, (in fact nearly all), the people I know would play a 2 level opening in pass out seat as at least an intermediate hand, in the range of 14-16, or about 8 playing tricks, certainly this is the norm here.

Which country is this in?

Oz.