Blast to grand, explore or give up ?

[sathyab]

[hv=d=n&v=b&n=skxhkjxdajxxckxxx&s=saxhaqxxxdkq9cajt]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

I watched the bidding on this hand in a recent GNT Open game. North opened 1nt and at one table it went 1nt-2d-2h-3c-3h-4nt-5h-7h ! The other table stopped in 6nt, auction unknown.

 

After I saw this hand, I immediately wrote to my partner reminding him of the need to play six-key RKC whenever a two-suiter faces a strong balanced opening such as 1nt/2nt. With that agreement, the bidding could go

 

1nt-2d

2h-3c

3h-3s

 

4c-4d (RKC, as responder is interested in a major-minor two suiter in which case  the immediate suit after the minor is the kickback suit, when  unambiguous),

4s(1430 structure, 3 keys out of 6), 4nt (Q-ask)

 

5c (no Q), 5nt(Specific King Ask, 5s can be Specific Suit Ask by agreement)

6s(Spade king)

 

So now, you have extracted as much information as you possibly can (if you had used SSA in spades you could have found out if pd had Kx of the suit or longer which could have been critical had you been interested in 7c, which could have been the case had partner shown the QofC and you suspected he had four of 'em; 7c would then be safer than 7h without the Jack of hearts, but that's academic now). You know pd has Kxx of hearts, AofD, KofC, but no Q and KofS. He must either have the Queen of Spades or two jacks for a minimum opener. Do you have enough info to try 7nt now ?

 

If you had discovered that partner was missing either the King of clubs or hearts, it appears to be poor grand, which would be the case if pd had something like KJx KJx AJX Qxxx or some unappetizing variant thereof, so it looks as though introducing clubs would have helped to some extent.

[pclayton]

If Responder actually had a 2 suiter, this idea has some merit, except how can you discover that ♣AKxxx opposite ♣xx has no losers playing this method.

 

Furthermore, I don't think the key to the hand is necessarily club fillers. What makes it an excellent grand is the 4 diamonds. 5 diamonds is also possibility to make 7 cold.

 

Since the South hand has a 20 count opposite a 1N opener, I think 6N is rather lazy. Certainly a key card auction and finding aout about the club king is useful. The spade K is also key, however at worse you know its on a guess for the ♣Q.

[sathyab]

If Responder actually had a 2 suiter, this idea has some merit, except how can you discover that ♣AKxxx opposite ♣xx has no losers playing this method.

 

Furthermore, I don't think the key to the hand is necessarily club fillers. What makes it an excellent grand is the 4 diamonds. 5 diamonds is also possibility to make 7 cold.

 

Since the South hand has a 20 count opposite a 1N opener, I think 6N is rather lazy. Certainly a key card auction and finding aout about the club king is useful. The spade K is also key, however at worse you know its on a guess for the ♣Q.

Ok, if you don't think the key to the hand is the club fillers what else is ? You have all the bidding space you want between 2h and 6nt which almost anyone would reach.

 

If hearts come home for no loser, any of the other suits can contribute tricks, but if hearts don't come home, then you do need the minor suits to be solid in which case you do need the King of clubs. One cheap way of finding out about the King of clubs is to make clubs a second suit as the Diamond Ace can be figured simply as part of key card inquiry.

 

You say a holding of 5 Diamonds could also make the grand a good one. But how do you propose to find that out while at the same time not giving up on the possibilty of a heart fit ?

[whereagles]

Given we got 35-37 hcp, I prefer

 

1NT 2♦

2♥ 5NT

7♥

 

5NT = balanced hand, forcing to 6NT and invitational to 7♥.

 

Opener has a min, but he has good hearts and a useful doubleton, so he accepts. Once in a lifetime you'll be missing out an ace, but I can live with that B)

[pclayton]

You say a holding of 5 Diamonds could also make the grand a good one. But how do you propose to find that out while at the same time not giving up on the possibilty of a heart fit ?

I don't mind some type of temporizing bid after the transfer. Obviously a 5332 20 count is a very unusual hand, and it's a good idea to see where our fit is early.

 

If Opener is allowed to take over with the diamond suit, then, the slam can be intelligently reached.

 

Playing transfer extensions, the auction would start 1N - 2♦ - 2♥ - 2♠ to show at least an invitational hand with a 5332. Opener could support hearts, responder would cue, although frankly this sequence hasn't come up for me and I'm not sure how the continuations would go.

[kenrexford]

I like the idea of manufacturing a minor suit for practical reasons, but I think it works better if Responder sets the auction up to tell rather than to ask.

 

1NT-P-2♦(transfer)-P-

2♥-P-3♦(manufactured)-P-

3♥(heart fit)-P-3♠(spade control)-P-

4♣(club control)-P-4♦(two top diamonds)-P-

4NT?-P-(three)-P-

Qask-P-yes

 

At this point, Opener knows that Responder has the spade Ace, AQxxx in hearts, the diamond King and Queen, and the club Ace. He can count, therefore, five hearts, four diamonds, two spades, and two clubs, for 13 rippers. He bids 7NT.

 

If Opener is belligerant after 4♦ and bids 4♠, Responder forces him to ask questions by bidding 4♠.

 

If something weird happens, Responder has enough values to blast a competent guess.

 

You may object that Opener, in some situations, will not know what "three" Responder has. So what? When the grand is there, Opener will know what three Responder has. When Opener is not sure, we end up in the small slam.

[kenrexford]

BTW, the worst case scenario for my approach is when Opener has one fewer diamond and three clubs (with two clubs, he can probably get in a ruff). So, you might have to guess a finesse or embark on a squeeze or something.

[cherdano]

If Responder actually had a 2 suiter, this idea has some merit, except how can you discover that ♣AKxxx opposite ♣xx has no losers playing this method.

Han and me play 6-key card blackwood on auctions where responder has shown a 2-suiter opposite a 1N opener (and similar auctions). The rule is that the K of the second suit counts as a keycard, but only the queen of the agreed suit counts for the queen ask. If responder knows about all keycards and the trump queen, he can still ask for 3-rd round control in the club side suit by bidding 6♣. (If he needs the club queen opposite to have enough tricks, he just asks for kings and opener will cue the ♣Q as if it were ♣K in normal RKCB auctions.)

[TimG]

If you had discovered that partner was missing either the King of clubs or hearts, it appears to be poor grand, which would be the case if pd had something like KJx KJx AJx Qxxx or some unappetizing variant thereof, so it looks as though introducing clubs would have helped to some extent.

You probably would have downgraded this 4333, 2 QT hand, and not opened 1NT.

 

Of course, you could change the NT range to 14-16 or 13-15 and get back to the original point.

[sathyab]

Given we got 35-37 hcp, I prefer

 

1NT 2♦

2♥ 5NT

7♥

 

5NT = balanced hand, forcing to 6NT and invitational to 7♥.

 

Opener has a min, but he has good hearts and a useful doubleton, so he accepts. Once in a lifetime you'll be missing out an ace, but I can live with that B)

I love that idea as I had myself brought it up in an e-mail exchange with a bunch of my buddies "Wouldn't 5nt force 6nt and invite 7nt" ? So now I know that there must be downside to it, just a matter of figuring out what it is :)

 

On this hand partner should upgrade KJx to full value and bid 7nt I think.

[whereagles]

You probably would have downgraded this 4333, 2 QT hand, and not opened 1NT.

All 15 counts are good 15 counts. No proud declarer ever downgrades a 1NT opener, which is bound to give him the play B)

[Guest Jlall]

Really don't see why 5N after 2H would invite 7, that is a normal bid with a 5332 17 count to try and get to the right fit without inventing suits. That is also a much more frequent occurance.

[Cascade]

Really don't see why 5N after 2H would invite 7, that is a normal bid with a 5332 17 count to try and get to the right fit without inventing suits. That is also a much more frequent occurance.

Exactly this is much more useful as pick-a-slam.

[sathyab]

Really don't see why 5N after 2H would invite 7, that is a normal bid with a 5332 17 count to try and get to the right fit without inventing suits. That is also a much more frequent occurance.

Aren't you taking up a lot of room with a balanced 17 HCP by jumping to 5nt directly ? Wouldn't be easier if partner could bid a 5-card minor below the six-level. There're so many things you can find out partner's hand and judge to bid 6 or 7 of a minor or for that matter even a 4-3 fit in a solid minor. You're giving all that up just so you can bid 5nt with a balanced 5332 17 count w/o inventing suits ?

 

For instance if you had caught partner with Kxxx Kx Axx KQxx, all 7c needs is a 4-2 break in clubs.

[matmat]

what was 5H on the original auction?

[sathyab]

what was 5H on the original auction?

Good ol' RKC with only hearts as trumps; two keys w/o the Q.

[Cascade]

After I saw this hand, I immediately wrote to my partner reminding him of the need to play six-key RKC whenever a two-suiter faces a strong balanced opening such as 1nt/2nt.

I hate this convention.

 

With this convention you can find out that slam is either great or hopeless and you have no idea which ...

 

Imagine two key cards missing.

 

Slam might be on one of two finesses - great!!!

 

or

 

You could be off two bullets - hopeless!!!

[gnasher]

For instance if you had caught partner with Kxxx Kx Axx KQxx, all 7c needs is a 4-2 break in clubs.

You'd have to bid it quite well.

[gnasher]

If responder shows a second suit, opener will think that what matters is how well his high cards fit responder's side suit, whereas the important question is how well responder's high cards fit opener's side suits. This sort of hand is a lot easier if responder can say early on that he's 5332, so that opener knows to treat his side-suit cards equally, and knows that it's OK to cuebid kings freely.

 

I sometimes play 1NT-2D-2H-2S as a relay, asking how may hearts opener has. A 3D reply would show three; after that any new suit is a cue bid in a 5332 or 6322 hand. That's rather better than having to bid 1NT-2D-2H-5NT.

 

After this start, the grand slam is fairly straightforward:

1NT 2D

2H 2S

3D 3S (cue bids from here onwards)

4C 4D

4S 5C

5D

 

At this stage, responder can count 12 tricks as long as there's no trump loser. A 13th trick might come from a club ruff, CQ, a long diamond, or SQ, so responder might just bid 7H (via GSF).

 

If that doesn't seem like good enough odds, he can instead cuebid his queen of diamonds with 6D. Opener can now count 13 tricks and will bid 7NT.

[Impact]

1NT 12-15 2C Stayman

2D 2S Relay

3H 2-3-4-4 3S R

4D 5 cont now you know Kx Kxx Axxx Kxxx but need DJ & HJ max for a really good grand but you can find out about CQ albeit you know that if he has the CQ he cannot have the HJ....

regards

[kenrexford]

If responder shows a second suit, opener will think that what matters is how well his high cards fit responder's side suit, whereas the important question is how well responder's high cards fit opener's side suits. This sort of hand is a lot easier if responder can say early on that he's 5332, so that opener knows to treat his side-suit cards equally, and knows that it's OK to cuebid kings freely.

 

I sometimes play 1NT-2D-2H-2S as a relay, asking how may hearts opener has. A 3D reply would show three; after that any new suit is a cue bid in a 5332 or 6322 hand. That's rather better than having to bid 1NT-2D-2H-5NT.

 

After this start, the grand slam is fairly straightforward:

1NT 2D

2H 2S

3D 3S (cue bids from here onwards)

4C 4D

4S 5C

5D

 

At this stage, responder can count 12 tricks as long as there's no trump loser. A 13th trick might come from a club ruff, CQ, a long diamond, or SQ, so responder might just bid 7H (via GSF).

 

If that doesn't seem like good enough odds, he can instead cuebid his queen of diamonds with 6D. Opener can now count 13 tricks and will bid 7NT.

:)

[inquiry]

I like some of glen ashton's stuff over NT (his ETM bidding systems, see www.bridgematters.com), and this hand is one example of why.

 

[hv=d=n&v=b&n=skxhkjxdajxxckxxx&s=saxhaqxxxdkq9cajt]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1N - 2D

2H - 3H

4C - 4D

4H - 4N

5H - 5S

6C - 7NT/7H

Pass [/hv]

 

2D = jacoby transfer, lots of different hands, including some without hearts

2N = less than 4 hearts

3H = GF, 5+ hearts, offering choice of 3NT/4H but can include slam tries

4C = cue-bid, gonna play in hearts, choose hearts. 3S would NOT BE cue bid, but offer choice back to responder for NT or hearts

4D = cue-bid or last train to clarksville, up to partnership agreement

4H = the conservative bid, if he cue-bids 4S instead grand is easy.

4N = rkcb

5H = 2 no queen

5S = specific suit ask

6D = Kx of spades

 

Opener knows about Club king (cue-bid), DA HK (response to blackwood), three hearts (2H bid), Kx of spades (response to 5S). This counts to 13 hcp. Playing 15-17 he has at least two more, and will probably not have 4 more (since only bid 4H over 4D will not be max). Opener will also likely be 2-3-4-4, 2-3-5-3, or 2-3-3-5 (a six card minor is still possible). At worse grand is likley on a club hook (assuming hearts behave if partner doesn't have the jack), and if partner has jack of diamonds or club queen, it will be easy. Even if partner is missing the jack of diamonds, you can try for 3-3 split before falling back on club hook if necessary.

 

I sort of like 7Nt, because you might be able to get 13 tricks even if hearts don't behave (we don't know about heart jack), via 4C, 4D, 3H, and 2S.. if partner has, for instance, Kx Kxx Axxx KQxx, or a heart-diamond squeeze if both hearts and diamonds are foul...

[kenrexford]

I like some of glen ashton's stuff over NT (his ETM bidding systems, see www.bridgematters.com), and this hand is one example of why.

 

[hv=d=n&v=b&n=skxhkjxdajxxckxxx&s=saxhaqxxxdkq9cajt]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1N - 2D

2H - 3H

4C - 4D

4H - 4N

5H - 5S

6C - 7NT/7H

Pass [/hv]

 

2D = jacoby transfer, lots of different hands, including some without hearts

2N = less than 4 hearts

3H = GF, 5+ hearts, offering choice of 3NT/4H but can include slam tries

4C = cue-bid, gonna play in hearts, choose hearts. 3S would NOT BE cue bid, but offer choice back to responder for NT or hearts

4D = cue-bid or last train to clarksville, up to partnership agreement

4H = the conservative bid, if he cue-bids 4S instead grand is easy.

4N = rkcb

5H = 2 no queen

5S = specific suit ask

6D = Kx of spades

 

Opener knows about Club king (cue-bid), DA HK (response to blackwood), three hearts (2H bid), Kx of spades (response to 5S). This counts to 13 hcp. Playing 15-17 he has at least two more, and will probably not have 4 more (since only bid 4H over 4D will not be max). Opener will also likely be 2-3-4-4, 2-3-5-3, or 2-3-3-5 (a six card minor is still possible). At worse grand is likley on a club hook (assuming hearts behave if partner doesn't have the jack), and if partner has jack of diamonds or club queen, it will be easy. Even if partner is missing the jack of diamonds, you can try for 3-3 split before falling back on club hook if necessary.

 

I sort of like 7Nt, because you might be able to get 13 tricks even if hearts don't behave (we don't know about heart jack), via 4C, 4D, 3H, and 2S.. if partner has, for instance, Kx Kxx Axxx KQxx, or a heart-diamond squeeze if both hearts and diamonds are foul...

I don't get it at all.

 

We dedicate a number of bids to asking questions about strain. 3♥ asks about strain, 3♠ asks back. Someone needs to make a decision.

 

We do all of this with the cost of anything resembling preparatory cuebidding of substance, cuebidding that on this hand helps. However ideal that pick-the-strain technique may be, it is not favorable for this auction, and yet you cite this as a good argument. The negatives are touted as the positives. Strange.

 

Then, we have one cue below game of any substance (I have a club control), followed by another pass-the-buck call of 4♦. This is starting to sound a bit weird so far.

 

So, we end up simply using RKCB, having gained nothing so far over any other auction possible, and again this is great stuff.

 

So, partner answers, and we for some reason ask about the spade situation, finding out about the Kx, and thereby decide that we will bid a grand with no knowledge of any source for trick 13 other than a finesse guess?

 

I just don't get how this deal is an example of anything powerful about ETM. This is a grand slam decision hand, and you end up making the ultimate decision with everything except that which matters.

[matmat]

what was 5H on the original auction?

Good ol' RKC with only hearts as trumps; two keys w/o the Q.

i need to learn to read right side up.

[sathyab]

For instance if you had caught partner with Kxxx Kx Axx KQxx, all 7c needs is a 4-2 break in clubs.

You'd have to bid it quite well.

Yes, it does indeed need some good bidding to get there. But most of the methods are well-understood and extremely well-illustrated by Kantar in his book "Roman Keycard Blackwood", Slam Bidding for the 21st century, 4th Edition. You don't need any of the esoteric stuff either, simple stuff like two-suit RKC, Specific King Ask (SKA) which most people play anyway and SSA (Specific Suit Asking). There's one additional treatment that helps on this hand, it's similar to the auction 1m-1M-2nt-3d (checkback). Now opener can bid 4m or 4om to tell his pd that he has 3M, 4OM and a good hand. When it goes 1n-xfer-to-M-2M-3x, pd now bids 3M whenever he has 3-card support for Major, 3nt with no interest in partner's suits, 3y to experss interest in pd's second suit alone and 4x on a hand where he has both 3-card Major and 4+ minor.

 

With Kxxx Kx Axx KQxx it'd go

 

1nt-2d

2h-3c

3d-3s

4c-4d(RKC)

4s(1430, 3 keys), 4nt(Q-ask)

5d(low Q, 5c would show 0, 5d low Q, 5h high Q and 5s 2 Q; since Q-ask has so many steps now it can not be extended to show Kings when holding a Q)

 

Now responder bids 5s (Specific Suit Ask in spades)

 

Cheapest return to one of the two-suits denies third round control and isn't counted as a step. That apart the steps are:

 

1st step: xx or Q

2nd step: Kxx(x)

3rd step: Kx

Raising SSA shows KQx. With a singleton and "lots of trumps" (this needs a lot more discussion), jump to 6 of cheapest suit.

 

On this hand pd bids 6d. 5nt is 1st step, 6c doesn't count, so 6d is 2nd step showing Kxx(x).

 

So there you have it: pd has Kxx or Kxxx of spades, Kx of hearts, AofD and at least 4 clubs to KQ. 7c is clear.

 

In the auction I posted first, 3c was a temporizing bid to find out if pd had 3 hearts. But I think recognizing clubs as a possible key suit, in that you can extract key card info about both K and Q leads to a really good slam. If you had chosen Diamonds instead, things don't work out as easily.