kgr Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 1♣-(P)-1♠!-(2♦)DBL-(P)-You have following agreements:- 1♠: No Major, transfer ♦ or transfer 1NT - All your DBLs are takeout unless agreed otherwise.You didn't agree this one. Would you take openers DBL as penalty or takeout or ♦ tolerance (eg at least doubleton)? What would you agree about the DBL?My hand at MP's was something like (I think all red):♠Axx♥xxx♦AJxx♣xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
655321 Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 You have following agreements:- All your DBLs are takeout unless agreed otherwise.You didn't agree this one. Would you take openers DBL as penalty or takeout or ♦ tolerance (eg at least doubleton)? That is a hint, I think. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 I think it should show extra values, not penalty. I pass with your hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogeshdg Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 Thnk it would take it as strong hand and bid 3nt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 It cannot be t/o since responder has no major. It could be penalty oriented but if opener has shortness in one of the majors, opps will have a fit in that suit. So one option is to play it as a balanced 18-19. Then responder will almost always pass (probably not with a 5-card clubs I suppose). Another option is to play it as typically 3316 (could also be 4315, 3226 or such) giving responder the choice between defending 2♦ and bidding 3♣ (or more), while also inviting responder to penalize 2M if they run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 It cannot be t/o since responder has no major. Why not? Opener cannot have a problem with a 4-4-1-4 15-count? or a 4-3-1-5 14-count? Or a 3-3-2-5 18-count without a stopper? These statisticians, I cannot follow their logic. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdonn Posted February 20, 2008 Report Share Posted February 20, 2008 You have following agreements:- All your DBLs are takeout unless agreed otherwise.You didn't agree this one. Would you take openers DBL as penalty or takeout or ♦ tolerance (eg at least doubleton)? That is a hint, I think. :) I love to see common sense inserted into an argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 OK, I guess my terminology sucks. I should have written "it cannot be aimed at finding a major suit fit". A double that gives responder the choice between notrump, clubs and defending is not what I would understand by the term t/o. I suppose the question could be phrased as "how many diamonds will opener typically have". I think the answer could be either 1, 2 or 3, roughly corresponding to the terms t/o (or action or DSIP), "cards" and penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 A double that gives responder the choice between notrump, clubs and defending is not what I would understand by the term t/o. Or 2M in a 4-3 or is that not allowed in Lancastershiresomewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogeshdg Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 A double that gives responder the choice between notrump, clubs and defending is not what I would understand by the term t/o. Or 2M in a 4-3 or is that not allowed in Lancastershiresomewhere? I totally agree. Why would bid 2♦ as takeout when you know your pd doesnt have a major giving the only option of playing in ♣? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogeshdg Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 A double that gives responder the choice between notrump, clubs and defending is not what I would understand by the term t/o. Or 2M in a 4-3 or is that not allowed in Lancastershiresomewhere?I totally agree. Why would anyone x 2♦ as takeout when you know your pd doesnt have a major and the only possible consequence of xing is to play in ♣???? (your partner can bid NT or x for penalties and doesnt need your x to make either of those bids). The only reason to x should be to show a strong hand and ask pd to pass for penalties since he cant be expected to x for penalties by himself if you simply pass 2♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 I had a reply ready, until it struck me... you know what? I think opener is gambling responder has DIAMONDS and is doubling to cater for that option. I would bid 2NT now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helene_t Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 Or 2M in a 4-3 or is that not allowed in Lancastershiresomewhere? The diamond shortness will be with the long trumps. You should read "To bid or not to bid" :P No seriously, if double shows ideally 3316, I suppose p will bid 2♥ with 33(43), and I suppose opener will pass with 3415 and scramble with 4315. All I'm trying to say that that isn't really the purpose of the double, you are hoping for a juicy penalty or some number of clubs, or 3NT. I wouldn't double with 4414 unless planning to try for game over 2M. Anyway, I think the simplest agreement to make is that responder assumes opener to have x diamonds, where x is either 1, 2 or 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted February 21, 2008 Report Share Posted February 21, 2008 FYI, for my partner and I this double shows a strong balanced hand. Even without this agreement I would pass. Or 2M in a 4-3 or is that not allowed in Lancastershiresomewhere? Just say Lancre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgr Posted February 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 I passed the DBL and 2♦x went -2 for 100%.I think my partner had 14 pts and a doubleton ♦.It feels like we sould play this DBL as penalty oriented (repsonder should only bid with 3334) or pure penalty. Pure take out seems less usefull because responder already denied the Majors (or is GF). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben42 Posted February 25, 2008 Report Share Posted February 25, 2008 Pure TO makes no sense (sorry Han). I also don't see why partner should Dbl with 14 HCP and 2!D whatever the Dbl meant. Opener cannot have a problem with a 4-4-1-4 15-count? Why would he want to bid with that? If partner has a penalty of 2♦ he will hit it. It might also depend what options responder had with long ♣, i.e. how many ♦ did you already show? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted February 25, 2008 Report Share Posted February 25, 2008 Opener cannot have a problem with a 4-4-1-4 15-count? Why would he want to bid with that? If partner has a penalty of 2♦ he will hit it. What if pards dbl is for take-out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 25, 2008 Report Share Posted February 25, 2008 Pure TO makes no sense (sorry Han). I also don't see why partner should Dbl with 14 HCP and 2!D whatever the Dbl meant. Opener cannot have a problem with a 4-4-1-4 15-count? Why would he want to bid with that? If partner has a penalty of 2♦ he will hit it. It might also depend what options responder had with long ♣, i.e. how many ♦ did you already show?To quote a famous Dutch soccer coach: Is it that I am so smart or are you so dumb?? :) If you pass, partner will pass it out with most hands. That is bad, you can probably do better, sometimes much better. Let's look at some typical hands: With Axx xxx xxx KJxx partner would most likely pass out 2D. Over the double partner bids 3C which is obviously much better for your side. Partner has Axx xxx AJxx xxx. Partner would most likely pass out 2D but converts your double and you get a nice score. Partner has Axx KJx xxxx xxx. Partner would most likely pass out 2D. After the double partner has a tough call, probably 2H which will likely scramble home. Partner has a penalty double of diamonds: you defend 2DX in either case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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