Bid this one

awm · February 19, 2008

Here's a hand from last night's club game. It was MP, but I think the problem is also interesting at IMPs. How would you bid this in your favorite methods? I'm particularly interested in methods that are "close" to BBO Advanced, but feel free to relay if you prefer.

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=skqxhtxdjtxcatxxx&s=sajxxhkq9xxdaxcqx]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

kenrexford · February 19, 2008

1♥-P-1NT(forcing)-P-

2♣-P-2♠("impossible" club raise)-P-

3NT-all pass

jdonn · February 19, 2008

1♥-P-1NT(forcing)-P-
2♣-P-2♠("impossible" club raise)-P-
3NT-all pass

Looks good to me given relatively standard methods.

han · February 19, 2008

In Wisconsin standard some might bid:

1H-1NT

2C-2S

3NT-pass.

But this is terrible, only losers bid like this!

hrothgar · February 19, 2008

Playing something close to BBO Advanced

1N - 3N

(Not sure whether I can stomach a 2♣ rebid after a forcing NT response). This would be more paletable playing Polish Club where 2♣ promises 2+ Clubs

Playing MOSCITO

1♣ - 1♦

1♥ - 1N

2♣ - 3♥

3N

1♣ = Strong

1♦ = Art GF

1♥ = Relay

1N = Balanced or 4441

2♣ = Relay

3♥ = 3=2=3=5

3N = To play

han · February 19, 2008

Not only posted Ken the same auction 1 minute before I did, it was even quoted before my post appeared. This sucks.

matmat · February 19, 2008

bid? I can't even decide what contract I want to be in to make up a suitably ending auction :/

kenrexford · February 19, 2008

Not only posted Ken 1 minute before I did, it was even quoted before my post appeared. This sucks.

You are just copying what I say to look smart! LOLOLOLOL

han · February 19, 2008

Alright, that's it. I'm editing my post.

Eat that Ken!

awm · February 19, 2008

Some folks may be missing the point here.

It's not that difficult to get to game. This was played at four tables in the Caltech bridge club, and all four tables got to game. The problem was, three of the four got to the wrong game. Most of the auctions posted so far get to the wrong game too.

Consider your chances in 3NT by north on a diamond lead (not unlikely given the auctions people are producing and the length/honors held by opponents). Don't you think that other game contracts might be better?

hrothgar · February 19, 2008

Some folks may be missing the point here.

It's not that difficult to get to game. This was played at four tables in the Caltech bridge club, and all four tables got to game. The problem was, three of the four got to the wrong game. Most of the auctions posted so far get to the wrong game too.

Consider your chances in 3NT by north on a diamond lead (not unlikely given the auctions people are producing and the length/honors held by opponents). Don't you think that other game contracts might be better?

Odd comments:

I readily admit that 3NT probably isn't the best game. I would much rather be in 4♠ than 3NT in the North. However, you asked me how I would bid the hands in question.

I assumed that you wanted an honest answer rather than some contrived auction that will identify the Moysian...

kenrexford · February 19, 2008

3NT is the contract I reach.

If, however, you want a contrived auction to reach 4♠...

Idea #1:

1♥-P-1♠-P-

3♠-P-3NT-P-

P-P

Nope.

Try again, Idea #2:

1♥-P-1NT!-P-

2♣-P-2♠-P-

3♠-P-4♠-

all pass

That one is plausible. I don't see it happening much, but it seems the best chance.

han · February 19, 2008

You asked us how we would bid the hands, we gave you our auctions, and you claim we missed the point? For once people gave honest answers and you are not happy because we didn't get to the top spot? Should we analyse the contracts first before we decide how we are going to bid the hands? Is this a warming up to yet another "2/1 sucks and here is why"-thread?

kenrexford · February 19, 2008

Actually, I'm not so sure that 3NT is not the best contract.

Against 3NT, I expect a diamond lead. The 10 forces and honor and the Ace. I now set about establishing hearts. If the diamond honors are split or both to the left (75%) and the heart Jack is to the left (50%), I'll take two minor cards, fouyr spades, and a minimum of two hearts, plus the established diamond, for nine tricks.

On the same lead against 4♠, I expect to lose a minor trick and the heart Ace all the time. However, a spade lead, followed by another spade upon winning the heart Ace at some point, leaves me needing those hearts to come in fairly well. I have transportation problems and need a lot of easy splits.

I'm still not sure what is best, but my gut tells me that 3NT is as fair as 4♠ or even better.

han · February 19, 2008

Here in Wisconsin we don't play these fancy 2/1 methods so we can start with a natural 2C bid. Look at how well this works:

1H-2C

2S

Now opener has enough extra strength to bid 2S, which should allow the partnership to reach the superior game. 2S is forcing to game and allows for the following natural continuation:

1H-2C

2S-2NT

??

Now the cheeseheads in Northern Wisconsin and Milwaukee bid fourth suit 3D, which shows doubts about the diamond stopper and easily allows the partship to find 4S. In the south we instead bid our club fragment which again allows responder to show his strong spade support:

1H-2C

2S-2NT

3C-3S

4S.

As you see, no matter which style you play, as long as you can start with a natural and forcing 2C you can't avoid the superior game. It seems to me that this is a frequently occuring problem with 2/1 gameforcing where the overloaded 1NT response makes opener guess for the best contract.

awm · February 19, 2008

Sure, thanks for being honest. Seems like nobody expects to reach the best contract on these cards.

There was one table at the club that reached 4♥, and they were playing 2/1 without any real special agreements. The auction was:

1♥ - 1NT

2♠ - 3♣

3♦ - 3♥

4♥

The 2♠ call was aggressive. The 3♣ bid was forcing. The 3♦ bid was basically a punt (fourth suit forcing?) on a hand with no clear direction. 3♥ denied a real diamond stopper and suggested a heart moysian (a real heart fit would have bid 3♥ forcing over 2♠).

Obviously people will disagree with some of the calls in this auction, but it certainly worked this time. I was curious whether other people would manage (using their favorite methods) to reach one of the better game contracts or languish in 3NT by north (failed one trick at all three tables who played there, while 4♥ was cold on the lie of the cards and made five on a club lead away from the king). It seems like the consensus is "we would play 3NT by north." Okay.

To Ken Rexford, I agree that 3NT by south is an excellent contract. Unfortunately your (and most other) auction reaches 3NT by north.

Apollo81 · February 19, 2008

If opener doesn't want to rebid 2♣ then it might go

1♥-1NT

2♥-3♥

3NT-p

At least the auction makes a diamond lead less likely than some other suggested auctions.

finally17 · February 19, 2008

Here in Wisconsin we don't play these fancy 2/1 methods so we can start with a natural 2C bid. Look at how well this works:

Han, you're so provincial.

Anyway, if I were bidding by myself I'd bid as Ken first suggested. But I wouldn't at all be surprised on BBO to see lots of 1N-3N.

Apollo81 · February 19, 2008

I wouldn't at all be surprised on BBO to see lots of 1N-3N.

True. I'm sure I'd open 1N opposite a BBO random

Mbodell · February 19, 2008

1♣ - 2♦ (16+;long clubs)

2♥ - 2NT (r;short hearts)

3♣ - 3♦ (r;3=2=3=5)

3♥ - 3NT (r;3 controls)

All pass

3NT by North in our relay too.

kenrexford · February 19, 2008

To Ken Rexford, I agree that 3NT by south is an excellent contract. Unfortunately your (and most other) auction reaches 3NT by north.

Oh yeah -- missed that.

I'd still decide to play 3NT, though. From Opener's standpoint, Qxx works well. From Responder's standpoint, he has no reason to fear the diamonds, as Axx from Opener works well.

If the auction were standard, I would still respond 1NT. A 2♣ does not promise any hand with 10 points. It promises 10+, but some 10-counts respond 1NT. I think that this is one of those hands. If 1NT was still forcing (like old K-S), then the auction would be identical. If 1NT was non-forcing, then Opener is pinched and has a problem. This is actually a good argument for a forcing 1NT, strangely. A forcing 1NT is traditionally argued as a means of helping a wildly unbalanced Responder. However, a forcing 1NT also strangely helps a "wildly balanced" Opener who has extra stuff but not enough for a JS or reverse.

If the auction were such as to allow a 2♣ response with this hand, I'd still end up in 3NT, I think. Opener would hear 2♣ and bid 2♠. This is GF. It seems that Responder should now blast 3NT with the actual hand, passed out. This seems like a fast arrival hand.

However, let's assume no fast arrival and a 2NT rebid. I don't understand why Opener would imply 4513 pattern when his clubs are Qx and he has the diamond Ace. I think the chessehead auction should be ...2NT-P-3NT.

So, how about the insane reverse auction? Opener decides, after a (forcing?) 1NT, to reverse into 2♠, showing a much better hand than he has. Responder bids 3♣ to suggest clubs (imagine that -- natural) and imply diamond concern (very weak inference). Opener now bid 3♦ as a "punt bid." Why would Responder show 10x heart support when he had J10x in diamonds? That looks like help to me. I think even in this auction 3NT is the call.

If there is any real question on this hand, it is whether there is a plausible way to bid where Responder's usual first call is not one that grabs notrump declarership too frequently. The only decent ideas I can think of are that inversion business (don't know how this hand would be bid) and some weird thing called a "Toddler 2♦" response (http://www.firesides.net/toddler.htm). I actually played a modified Toddler 2♦ in another guy's homespun canape system, but I cannot remember how effective it was. But, the idea is to have a technique that minimizes the use of a forcing 1NT response.

Yogeshdg · February 21, 2008

Sorry whether i respond 2♣ or a forcing 1nt me and my pd will always reach 3nt.

Well done if you reach 4♠ AND make it

the hog · February 21, 2008

1♥-P-1NT(forcing)-P-
2♣-P-2♠("impossible" club raise)-P-
3NT-all pass

Same sequence as Ken playing 2/1. Playing big C I used to play at times, you could get to 3NT from the other side via 1C 2D* 2NT

Where 2D shows a flat positive.

inquiry · February 21, 2008

[hv=d=s&v=b&n=skqxhtxdjtxcatxxx&s=sajxxhkq9xxdaxcqx]133|200|Scoring: MP

Auction 1.

1NT - 3NT